thread 2 page1

ChandraS	Post subject: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 02 May 2008 08:07 pm
BRFite Joined: 28 Nov 2006 07:22 pm Posts: 213	Admin note: Old Thread Archived here Given the wealth of information and knowledge in the preceding pages of this thread, I humbly submit that this thread be archived for posterity. Many, including yours truly, will benefit from reading these discussions.
Top

Kaushal	Post subject: Posted: 03 May 2008 04:37 pm
BRFite Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 402 Location: SanFrancisco Bay Area	Spinster, As you embark on your very laudable project, dont forget to throw some loose change (S20,000) in my direction , which we need to run the History show in Delhi If need be i can travel to pitch the (Hi)story
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 03 May 2008 10:46 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	ramana wrote: Besides if you think about it a everything is political. With out rajanugrha(royal patronage) nothing ever really happens. By rajanugraha, I mean prosperity, stabilty and security that foster an atmosphere for development in all other spheres of life. I understand that, but could you tell me the name of any political or artistic movement you would have put in? The lingual barriers especially, I think, prevented from pan-Indian movements (along with a centralized state that would have enforced a pan-language) that we see in Europe, for example, such as the Enlightenment or the Renaissance. I honestly would have put in Kalidasa and Bhasa. If you have read their stuff (even the ACK ones) and watched an Indian movie, you know exactly where we get our plots from. 2000 years later, we're still telling the same story...
Top

Kaushal	Post subject: Posted: 04 May 2008 12:21 am
BRFite Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 402 Location: SanFrancisco Bay Area	I understand that, but could you tell me the name of any political or artistic movement you would have put in? I would have included decimal place value system, trigonometry, algebra, Grammar, Semantics, etymology, ,epistemology, the darshanas, the first signs of a perennial philosophy, which went far beyond the cartesian world of cogito ergo sum. There other lists one can come up with in th eperforming arts. It is interesting you thought of the number 10 instead of 3 or 5 or 12 or 20 The lingual barriers especially, I think, prevented from pan-Indian movements (along with a centralized state that would have enforced a pan-language) that we see in Europe, for example, such as the Enlightenment or the Renaissance. I think you need to elaborate. the geographical reach of a language or a dialect (there were few codified languages tilll 200 years ago) was not larger than about a radius of 100 miles in any part of the world till the advent of literacy, the telegraph and the railway. The only language that had wide currency in Europe, for most of their history was Latin (because of the Church) and even that was spoken by less than 1 % (those who were fortunate enough to attend one of the half a dozen universities). In fact the number of speakers of sanskrit was far larger (as a percentage a s well as in numbers) . It was only after large scale pogroms directed at ethe intellectual leadership of india, coupled with other reasons such as Thomas Macaulay s minute and the incidence of famine, that the number offf speakers of saskrit went down to single digit percentages. This despite the fact that there was no central authority. Even today the number of speakers of Sanskrit exceeds those who speak Latin. Language was never a barrier in india.
Top

csharma	Post subject: Posted: 04 May 2008 12:38 am
BRFite Joined: 12 Jul 1999 06:01 am Posts: 181	Keshav, when is your hindu history website coming up? Are you going to have documentaries? The youtube preview is just awesome. Youtube is littered with documentaries on Greece, Rome etc. Looking forward to seeing some documentaries from Hindu point of view. Enough of Michael Wood, Kosambi, Thapar. IMHO, the things to consider for the website are the following. Luminaries on this website can provide more ideas. 1) Alexander's incursion into India, 2) Rise of Chandragupta and the Maurya dynasty. 3) Chanakya's role in establishment of the first pan Indian empire. The notion of India being one state was behind this. 4) Asoka, of course. 5) Gupta golden age. 6) Role of Indic people in setting up the first SE Asian kingdoms. 7) Tremendous achievments in Maths, science and technology. 8) Cholas 9) Harshvardhan 10) Defeat of Arabs by Rajputs. 11) Vijaynagar kingdom. 12) Shivaji, and Sikh kingdom leading to Hindu revival in 18th century. 13) Should also cover heroes like Rana Pratap, Hemu.
Top

RaviBg	Post subject: Posted: 04 May 2008 01:44 am
BRFite Joined: 26 Mar 2002 07:01 am Posts: 1328 Location: Under the toddy tree drinking milk	wasn't the treatise on law written in 12th or 13th century still used in Indian judician system? I forgot the name of the author or the work, except that he lived in Karnataka.
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 04 May 2008 01:50 am
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	csharma wrote: Keshav, when is your hindu history website coming up? Are you going to have documentaries? The youtube preview is just awesome. Youtube is littered with documentaries on Greece, Rome etc. Looking forward to seeing some documentaries from Hindu point of view. Enough of Michael Wood, Kosambi, Thapar. The YouTube preview is indeed very cool. I had heard of the project a long while back. After that, it apparently went back burner and eventually dwindled to about three people total working on articles, the website, promotion, etc. and was just about ready to stop. I emailed the leader of the project and he was excited to see an extra participant. I seemed to have revived some interest and broken down the project into goals that can be given deadlines and dealt with in a realistic manner. This leader is, apparently, a very busy person and I haven't heard back from him in about two weeks. He started a Yahoo Group for it and wanted to use lots of those articles but I didn't like many of them as they were not cited (and finding Indian sources is very difficult). All in all, it will take a while if we end up being the only people. I told him that I had a secret resource (aka BR) as well other sites so I'm hoping I'll be the driving force behind it. I think BR will be happy to help. If you know any website creation experts who can create something dynamic, colorful, and functional, feel free to contact me. thatindiandude@gmail.com The group he started: http://groups.msn.com/hindu-history
Top

Pulikeshi	Post subject: Posted: 04 May 2008 02:58 am
BRFite Joined: 31 Oct 2002 07:01 am Posts: 288 Location: Badami	RaviBg wrote: wasn't the treatise on law written in 12th or 13th century still used in Indian judician system? I forgot the name of the author or the work, except that he lived in Karnataka. The bridge between North and South occurred during the reign of the Badami Chalukyas. While, everyone talks of Vijayanagar, less is spoken of the Chalukyas and their impact on the Indian sub-continent. I think you are referring to Mitakshara by Vigneshwara in the court of Chalukya Vikramaditya VI. The Mitakshara is a treatise on Yajnavalkaya's earlier work. Another rewriting of the Smrithi if you will to suit the times. The Bakhti movement in someways had its origins in the lands ruled by the Chalukyas. It was boot strapped by the caste reform initiated by Basavannacharya (Basavanna) and Ramanujacharya (Vishista Dwaita). Later under British India, Colebrooke translated portions on Hindu inheritance law. His work is found even today in the Indian Legal system.
Top

ramana	Post subject: Posted: 04 May 2008 05:40 am
Forum Moderator Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 7269	Folks Look at this slide show: http://www.slideshare.net/sirmartin/03- ... n-history/ Its on theories of history.
Top

csharma	Post subject: Posted: 04 May 2008 07:03 am
BRFite Joined: 12 Jul 1999 06:01 am Posts: 181	Keshav, I sent you an email.
Top

Prasenjit Medhi	Post subject: Posted: 04 May 2008 04:18 pm
BRFite -Trainee Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 50 Location: Bangalore	I am interested and capable of writing a comprehensive multi-volume Hindu history of India. It will be the truth though, from a Hindu perspective, no propaganda. I need dedicated research assistants, for the period of writing. After completion, I can participate to an extent in funding publication. I am prepared to devote a good number of years to churn a good history of India, and Indic civilization. Is anyone seriously interested? Email then.
Top

Sanku	Post subject: Posted: 07 May 2008 06:49 am
BRFite Joined: 23 Aug 2007 10:27 am Posts: 1523 Location: Naaahhhh	When Saraswati turned real Quote: When Saraswati turned real Second opinion: Ashok Mehta This refers to Ms Sandhya Jain's book review, "Return of Saraswati" (April 27). For centuries Hindus have been hearing about Saraswati river and worshipping it. There are many references to this river in the Rig Ved, compared to just one or two to Ganga. Yet it has been dismissed as a mythical river. Today, thanks to ISRO, the myth has become a reality; only, we still cannot see it. Saraswati was not a tributary of Ganga, but an independent river system. While reading Mr NS Rajaram's book, Saraswati River and the Vedic Civilisation, all doubts regarding Saraswati river being mythical vanished. I also read some newspaper reports. The Rig Ved regards it as "Ambitame Naditame Devitame" (the best of all mothers, the best of all rivers and the best of all goddesses). Therefore, I made a couple of references to ISRO under the Right to Information Act. I must commend ISRO for the prompt and exhaustive replies. ISRO supplied me with copies of two articles - 'New Findings on the Course of the River Saraswati' by AK Gupta, JR Sharma, G Sreenivasan and KS Srivastava (published in the Journal of ISRO, Vol 32, No l, 2004), and 'Course of the Vedic River Saraswati as Deciphered from Latest Satellite Data' by JR Sharma, AK Gupta and BK Bhadra (published in Puratatva, the bulletin of the Archaeological Society of India, 2005-06). According to these articles, Saraswati river was the mightiest of rivers, running parallel to Indus river (about 850 km east). It originated in the Himalayas and passed through Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, Sindh (in Pakistan) and Gujarat and ended in the Rann of Kutch. It had seven tributaries, including Sutlej and Yamuna. There were about 1,500 Harappan and Pre-Harappan sites along the course of the river. Later, due to the changes, Sutlej swung westwards and became an Indus tributary and Yamuna joined Ganga. It dried up in about 2000 to 1500 BC due to tectonic and paleo-climatic changes. The Archaeological Survey of India, however, was blissfully ignorant of the two articles mentioned above till I drew its attention to them. Instead, I got evasive replies from the ASI to my RTI applications. They have done nothing to explore the 1,500 odd sites which may shed new light on our history. It is time the Government allocated adequate funds to a Saraswati river project to explored this important aspect of ancient Indian history.
Top

surinder	Post subject: Posted: 07 May 2008 03:18 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 457 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Keshav wrote: The group he started: http://groups.msn.com/hindu-history This is a little OT, but I wish he had not mentioned of Swami Dayanand.
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 07 May 2008 05:24 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	surinder wrote: Keshav wrote: The group he started: http://groups.msn.com/hindu-history This is a little OT, but I wish he had not mentioned of Swami Dayanand. Swami Dayananda Saraswati? The founder of Arya Samaj? My email is above - perhaps you could send me a message and tell me why (that is, if you feel comfortable doing it).
Top

Prasenjit Medhi	Post subject: Posted: 07 May 2008 05:43 pm
BRFite -Trainee Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 50 Location: Bangalore	Hey, the great warriors section is missing Lacchit Borphukan, the general who defeated the greatest ever mughal army assembled till then. He defeated a Mughal army with 30,000 Mughal infrantrymen, 18,000 Turkish Horsemen, 15,000 archers, 5,000 arquebusiers, and 5,000 Rajput Cavaliers, along 5,000 levies from Cooch Behar, led by the Honoured Kacchawa Maharaja Ram Singh(who was given this commission by Aurangzeb after the Mughal had incarcerated two of Ram Singh's young sons and used them for sport by asking them to fight elephants); with some Assami Kalita levies, some Ahom nobles, and some tribals. He did have my ancestor Shatrubhuj, a recent emigree from Kannauj, as an advisor though Seriously, Shatrubhuj was just a puffed up messenger, and diplomat, the glory was all Lacchit's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saraighat The Sangh considers him an Indian hero at a level almost at a par with Shivaji Maharaj.
Top

Ashok Sarraff	Post subject: Posted: 07 May 2008 05:51 pm
BRFite -Trainee Joined: 05 Oct 2007 07:14 pm Posts: 15	csharma wrote: IMHO, the things to consider for the website are the following. Luminaries on this website can provide more ideas. 1) Alexander's incursion into India, 2) Rise of Chandragupta and the Maurya dynasty. I would love to see another slant: the spread of Indic ideas overseas... e.g.: 1. Influence of Indic ideas on Ancient Greeks/Romans (i.e., before the arrival of Alexander) 2. Influence of "Harrapan" ideas on the middle Eastern civilizations of that time. 3. Influence on the "Old Testament" people 4. Influence on the Southeast Asian region A
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 07 May 2008 07:23 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	Prasenjit Medhi wrote: Hey, the great warriors section is missing Lacchit Borphukan, the general who defeated the greatest ever mughal army assembled till then. That site is, but the same creators of that made this one: http://www.shaktimarg.com/warriors/lachitbarphukan.htm The whole story is ridiculously amazing to listen to considering how much he did to overcome a shortage of numbers. His sickness alone is a testament to Lacchit Borphukhan's will. What we should also attempt to do is reign in the Northeast and the East (Assam, Bengal, Orissa) and blend them into the wider Indic narrative. Even on BR, we spend a lot time on the Vijaynagar, Rajputs, Marathas, but forget the Brahmaputra valley for the Sindhu. Should be part of the goal on BR to include these groups.
Top

Kaushal	Post subject: Posted: 07 May 2008 07:32 pm
BRFite Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 402 Location: SanFrancisco Bay Area	Influence of Indic ideas on Ancient Greeks/Romans (i.e., before the arrival of Alexander) conference, Any takers for a paper at the Delhi conference , The time frame would be from the Vedanga Jyotisha(Lagaddha) and the satapatha brahmana (Yagnyavalkya) both of which predate Thales of MIletus by several hundred years, Yagnyavalkya incidentally came upo with the 95 year cycle which is far more accurate than the 19 year metonic cycle (for synchronizing the sun and the moon). Yagnyavaklkya was incidentally a polymath and a philospher wrote the Brihat aranyaka upanishad I have plenty of research material, and i can help guide a person write it . I am particularly interested in the spread of astronomy from indka. we have had enough of the Greek to India transmittal which would only be possible if the greeks were time travellers and could travel backwards in time . I am, over committed and i wont have time to write it myself. but it needs a knowledge of ancient astronomy (spherical trigonometry and some math)
Top

surinder	Post subject: Posted: 09 May 2008 05:22 am
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 457 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Keshav wrote: [quote="surinderSwami Dayananda Saraswati? The founder of Arya Samaj? My email is above - perhaps you could send me a message and tell me why (that is, if you feel comfortable doing it). At first I thought it was off-topic, but I realized later that actually it is very pertinent to the issue discussed here. At the risk of offending some people, I will tell the brief synopsys here. I wish to seek pardon if I offend anyone; it not my intention. Swami Dayanand was a Gujrati. He was invited to Lahore. At first he preached only adherence to Vedas and the need to back to them. Soon he was to take some very nasty jabs at Sikhism. He derided Sikh Gurus as being illeterate, especially because they did not write their hymns in Sanskrit. (Sikh Gurus, contrary to what many beleive were highly educated men.) This offended the Sikh community. He wrote disparagingly of the Sikhs and there is a couplet by him which goes something like "Idhar udhar sey jor kar Granth Banaya ..." (translation: The Sikh book has been made by randomly getting stuff from here and there). His open anti-Sikh attitude shocked the Sikhs, and to some extent the Hindus as well. He advocated the Hindus to give up Punjabi language and take up Hindi. The seeds sown by SD in the Punjab in around 1880 created a rift *for the first time* between Hindus & the Sikhs. The relationship between these two very very close religions plummetted. Swami made a call to "Shudhi" of the Sikhs to bring them back to the Hindu fold. Simultanieously Hindu claimed Sikhism as indistinguishable from Hinduism. The rift just widened. Sardar Kahan Singh Nabha wrote a book, "Hum Hindu Nahin" at that time to counter the Swami. Even some Hindus were apalled, one Daulat Rai wrote a book extolling Guru Gobind Singh, "Sahib-e-Kamaal". But the seeds sown by Swami did not go away. The rift continues to this day. One impact of this is visible even today---Punjabi Hindus have by and large abandoned the Punjabi language. Sikhs take this as an insult. Whe Punjab was split in 1966 into Haryana and Himachal, many Punjabi Hindus declared their mother toungue Hindi, even while they could not speak Hindi. Sikhs have taken this personally. Ultimately, Swami Dayananda due to his passion for pure Sanskritic Vedas did not see Sikhs and their religion wothy of any respect. His open contempt disturbed the fabric of faith in the Punjab. This was the first ever reported rift. His efforts at Shudhikaran of Sikhs was a failure, as was his movement of Shudhi of Muslims (he got no Muslims to come back to Hinduism). He sowed the seeds of rift between the sister faiths. We are reaping it today. Ironically, the Swami was invited to Lahore by the Sikh themselves. It must also be noted that that Swami never got any prominence in his home state of Gujrat or anywhere else in India. Only Punjab. While he advocated the Hindu Punjabis to abondon their mother toungue, he never gave the same recommendation to the Gujratis or the Bengalis. Today Punjabi Hindus (along with Muslims) are the only group in India who willingly and gleefully abondon their mother toungue. I read recently that a UN study has warned that in 50 years or so Punjabi might be a dead language. The relevance to this thread this is that we are discussing distortion of History. The whole thread is full of whines about foreign distortion of Indian history. Every single poster casts India as a helpless victim. This thread does not discuss that maybe Indians themselves could have distorted history. This is not a popular view point here. The elevation and deification of Swami Dayanand in modern Indian history is one such distortion done by India itself.
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 09 May 2008 04:08 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	surinder wrote: The relevance to this thread this is that we are discussing distortion of History. The whole thread is full of whines about foreign distortion of Indian history. Every single poster casts India as a helpless victim. This thread does not discuss that maybe Indians themselves could have distorted history. This is not a popular view point here. The elevation and deification of Swami Dayanand in modern Indian history is one such distortion done by India itself. That is a pickle, but he didn't just offend Sikhs, but also Hindus as well. Swami Dayananda Saraswati believed that the Puranas were the source of much superstition and the cause of many societal ills, so he basically banned and hated them. Sita Ram Goel, a Hindu revivalist, talks about it in his short autobiography "How I Became a Hindu" and his experiences with Arya Samaj. In his early life, he was profoundly affected by the Mahabharata and Lord Krishna and greatly admired that character. When Arya Samaj set up shop, he was violently told to stay away from the "Bhagawat Purana" (primarily stories of Krishna and Vishnu) and he almost felt like a criminal reading it because of the stern teacher. http://www.bharatvani.org/books/hibh/ His teachings offend other Hindus as well, but their shuddhi conversions "work towards" other sampradyas as well, so maybe things have toned down a bit since then. I've heard of temples that won't allow suspected non-Hindus in without proper papers from Arya Samaj. I haven't lived in India so I don't know of any deification (I hardly knew he existed until recently) but I suppose we'll just have to write the truth when we (BR and others) write the true narrative of India.
Top

surinder	Post subject: Posted: 09 May 2008 04:15 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 457 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Keshav wrote: When Arya Samaj set up shop, he was violently told to stay away from the "Bhagawat Purana" (primarily stories of Krishna and Vishnu) Incidently, Bhagawat Purana is a big source for many of the inspiring stories within Sikhism as well. (Story of Ajamal, Gajendra, Ganika etc.)
Top

Prem	Post subject: Posted: 09 May 2008 05:20 pm
BRFite Joined: 01 Jul 1999 06:01 am Posts: 1197 Location: JANAZA E PAKISTAN	Even Swami Vivekanand thought of Swami Dayanand as unripe soul. Preacher stressing upon the differences i.e negatives rather than similarities i.e positives is not to be considred divinly sanctioned.
Top

surinder	Post subject: Posted: 09 May 2008 06:03 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 457 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Prem wrote: Even Swami Vivekanand thought of Swami Dayanand as unripe soul. Preacher stressing upon the differences i.e negatives rather than similarities i.e positives is not to be considred divinly sanctioned. I am a fan of Swami Vivekananda. Could tell me where he said the above. I would be most obliged.
Top

kuldipchager	Post subject: Posted: 09 May 2008 06:30 pm
BRFite -Trainee Joined: 30 Aug 2007 03:05 pm Posts: 27 Location: USA	It is True that our History is Distorded by Mugal then British.Now We have to decide ,How We can Pick up the Peaces and put it in Right Track. If We can Study the Stone OR Mud they Use builting Ram Sethu Bride(INDIA-SHRILANKA).Now We will be able to see the age and time,HOW old they are.This will tell us How manny Yrs back and When RAMMA Has Happended. If We look at Monkey Senna.Half man/half money,It have to at least close to milion yrs.
Top

Prem	Post subject: Posted: 09 May 2008 06:50 pm
BRFite Joined: 01 Jul 1999 06:01 am Posts: 1197 Location: JANAZA E PAKISTAN	surinder wrote: Prem wrote: Even Swami Vivekanand thought of Swami Dayanand as unripe soul. Preacher stressing upon the differences i.e negatives rather than similarities i.e positives is not to be considred divinly sanctioned. I am a fan of Swami Vivekananda. Could tell me where he said the above. I would be most obliged. I have to look into few books dusting on the shelf of my book case. What i read was certain body features change after God realization. He judged him to be on the path but short of achieving the goal.
Top

Rahul M	Post subject: Posted: 09 May 2008 07:01 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	kuldeep, logically and scientifically you should not take the term banara-sena literally w/o hard evidence to the contrary. the most consistent and logical explanation will be to consider the banara-sena to be a jungle dwelling clan of human beings who identified with a monkey totem. and probably used to wear monkey like garbs (masks/ornamental tails) etc when they went to war or conducted festivities. That, I suppose would be the real historical interpretation of this aspect of the Ramayana, one that our main stream historians have summarily ignored. talking of a million year old civilization won't make much scientific sense, I'm afraid. BTW, using archeoastronomy some researchers pegged the date of the mahabharata at 7500 BC. How reliable is this ?? can somebody confirm ?? The incident chosen was the solar eclipse during the Kurukhshetra war.
Top

ramana	Post subject: Posted: 09 May 2008 07:09 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 7269	Interesting article on 1857 celebrations or not by UPA. Why did the 1857 celebration fizzle out?
Top

vaman	Post subject: Posted: 09 May 2008 07:34 pm
BRFite Joined: 11 Aug 2007 11:50 am Posts: 505	From the above link Quote: But almost nothing was done -- reneging on its promise, the UPA government did not bring Bahadur Shah Zafar's ashes back to India from Myanmar Bahadur Shah's ashes, do BR gurus know anything more about this? BTW I think Kakkaji made a great post on this subject last year roung about the same time, pity I didnt save it anywhere.
Top

Rahul M	Post subject: Posted: 09 May 2008 08:13 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	interesting tit-bit on continuity of IVC and subsequent Indian civilization. from wiki : Quote: The weights and measures later used in Kautilya's Arthashastra (4th century BCE) are the same as those used in Lothal.[33] # ^ Sergent, Bernard (1997). Genèse de l'Inde (in French), 113. ISBN 2228891169. edited later: some more: Quote: Many crafts "such as shell working, ceramics, and agate and glazed steatite bead making" were used in the making of necklaces, bangles, and other ornaments from all phases of Harappan sites and some of these crafts are still practiced in the subcontinent today.[36] Some make-up and toiletry items (a special kind of combs (kakai), the use of collyrium and a special three-in-one toiletry gadget) that were found in Harappan contexts still have similar counterparts in modern India.[37] Terracotta female figurines were found (ca. 2800-2600 BCE) which had red color applied to the "manga" (line of partition of the hair), a tradition which is still seen in India.[37]
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Arthashastra and Art of War Posted: 09 May 2008 09:36 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	There was a discussion in "Let us understand the Chinese" thread that prompted this particular post. Even Westerners do not have any time honored manuals on war, which is why many of them are attracted to the "Art of War" by Sun Tzu. The "commentary" on AOW is the Chinese epic "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" which is a about a war between three kingdoms utilizing the political and war strategies of AOW - the practical application guide, if you will. One cannot compare our Arthashastra with the Chinese AOW because there are entirely different manuals. The Arthashastra is a treatise on artha ("wealth") and ways to protect that wealth - a sizable chunk is devoted to foreign policy and war. Chanakya had no knack for romance, but he used the Indian tradition of storytelling to create scenarios in order to teach foreign policy. So, it was a combination of both - the treatise is ridiculously detailed (I am currently reading it). AOW is maybe 76 pages at most, in small poetic snippets. Chanakya writes in detailed prose to explain these situations. They are simply not the same.
Top

surinder	Post subject: Posted: 11 May 2008 09:19 am
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 457 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Saw this interesting article. It talks about an interesting incident that heppened in Amritsar in 1857. The black hole of Amritsar: *[Story of this Black Hole of Amritsar got buried in the pages of history, while that of the Black Hole of Calcutta, became a part of text books for school children. http://www.sikhspectrum.com/052005/1857.htm An example of distorted history. By the way, is there a one complete book on the British atrocities in India?
Top

satyarthi	Post subject: Posted: 11 May 2008 10:01 am
BRFite Joined: 21 Aug 2006 03:20 am Posts: 179	Surinder, Sw. Dayanand was very critical of Hindu practices too! Besides mocking Islam and Christianity, he also heaped a lot of abuse on Hindus. He was against idol worship and all sorts of non-vedic practices. He was against deification per se, so taling about his deification by Arya Samaj is ironic. Apparently he was very devout shaiva as a child. And kept awake all night on a shivaratri, while others fell asleep. Then he saw some mice eat the offerings made to the shiva-linga. And he decided that a stone-image that couldn't protect itself against mice was not worthy of worship. IMHO he was genuine in his ideas, and ripped apart anything which couldn't stand his own standards. He translated Vedas into Hindi, and asked Hindus to give up idol-worship and temple worship and return back to Vedic formless worship using a fire sacrifice. I personally don't agree with a lot of criticisms that Sw Dayananda made. And I am a great admirer of Sikh Gurus too, and Guru Gobind Singhji has been a great favorite since my childhood. But Sw Dayananda utilized his indic privilege, to criticse without necessarily having to get one's head chopped off, which must be acknowledged and allowed. Sikhs may be offended by him. But he was an equal opportunity offender and didn't spare the Hindus either. Rather than taking "offence" at his criticisms, can one claim that his criticisms were completely baseless? He had at least some valid reasons for his criticisms. And others surely have many other valid reasons to negate those criticisms. But that has been the way in India for a long time. Buddhists trashed Vedic ideas, and Advaitis trashed Buddhists. Even at present check some debates between GaudIya-VaishNavas and Shankara-Advaitis, and see how critical they can be of each other. Through this raw and open itellectual discourse Indian philosophical traditions and religions grew. No thought or idea should be a holy cow in India, not hinduism nor sikhism. Let criticisms come and if they have power to hold they will hold. Eventually such criticisms will make a religion more sophisticated and strong by having the need to respond to all such critics by developing appropriate intellectual firepower of its own. One just hopes that the firepower is not of Islamic type, of sword and physical force, but of mind. IIRC a hindu poisoned him by mixing glass powder in his milk. He knew who had poisoned him such, but forgave the person, and died peacefully. Just imagine the difficulties he must have faced standing in the face of all the major religions including hinduism. He was a lion who stood steadfastly for whatever he believed in and died for the same. One may not agree with him in details. But he has his place in the grand indic fabric.
Top

sanjaychoudhry	Post subject: Posted: 11 May 2008 10:46 am
BRFite Joined: 12 Jul 2007 07:09 pm Posts: 556 Location: La La Land	Some of my relatives in Chandigarh are Arya Samajis. Arya Samaj founded by Swami Dayanand has certain good points . But it has some bad points too as it rejects quite a few central percepts of Hinduism and tries to mould it on the line of Semitic faiths. I personally agree with its forward-looking social agenda but reject its spiritual vision. I feel bad when my Arya Samaji relatives refuse to go to a Hindu temple with me citing that they do not believe in idol worship. Temples and idol worship are what keep common Hindus anchored to their faith. There is a deep spiritual truth behind worshipping God through images that can be percieved with human eyes. Our rishis and yogis had realised this long ago. Swami Dayanand was poisioned by the cook of Maharaja of Jodhpur on instigation of one of his mistresses-cum-courtesan, Nanhi Jan. The Swami realised what had happened, forgave the cook and even game him money to escape Jodhpur so that the king couldn't punish him. You can read his magnum opus Satyarth Prakash ("The Light of Truth") online and form your own views about his philosophy. http://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org/satyarth_prakash_eng.htm
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 13 May 2008 04:33 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	Can someone help me with notation for the Hindu calendar? I'll start off by saying I don't know anything about it, how it functions, or the notation used to write a year. I do know that one of the famous ones was created by a king named Vikramaditya in the Middle Ages which is why notation with his calendar ends with "Vikrami". Anyone wanna help me out?
Top

satyarthi	Post subject: Posted: 13 May 2008 08:17 pm
BRFite Joined: 21 Aug 2006 03:20 am Posts: 179	Keshav, If you have specific questions then I can try. Otherwise it is too big a field to start writing. There were some posts in the previous version of this thread on pages 4,5. Old archived thread Regarding Vikram samvat or vikram era,, its origin is about 58BC, so hardly middle ages. Other major samvat-s (eras) are saka-samvat (or shalivahan-samvat) origin 78AD. The oldest samvat used is kali-samvat (origin 3102 BC). Last edited by satyarthi on 20 May 2008 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 13 May 2008 10:01 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	satyarthi wrote: Keshav, If you have specific questions then I can try. Otherwise it is too big a field to start writing. I actually wanted to write a story where the first line would be the date, and I wanted to do it by the Hindu calendar instead of the Gregorian one due to the nature of the plot and the characters. Is there any easy way to convert from Gregorian to a particular Samvat? For example, could you show me how to say 2107 CE in Vikram and Kali Samvat?
Top

satyarthi	Post subject: Posted: 13 May 2008 10:16 pm
BRFite Joined: 21 Aug 2006 03:20 am Posts: 179	Keshav wrote: satyarthi wrote: Keshav, If you have specific questions then I can try. Otherwise it is too big a field to start writing. I actually wanted to write a story where the first line would be the date, and I wanted to do it by the Hindu calendar instead of the Gregorian one due to the nature of the plot and the characters. Is there any easy way to convert from Gregorian to a particular Samvat? For example, could you show me how to say 2107 CE in Vikram and Kali Samvat? 2107 CE = 2107 + 58 - 1 = 2164 Vikrami-Samvat 2107 CE = 2107 + 3102 - 1 = 5208 Kali-Samvat Since there was no 0 AD or 0 BC ( after 1BC we get 1AD), we need to subtract 1, as shown above, to get the correct year. Remember that Indian new year starts in Spring. So months before spring fall on the previous Vikrami year but would still be same Gregorian year. There are many software programs as well as websites that will do it for you. Search for "panchang" or "panchanga", which is the sanskrit name for Indian calendar. To state a date in Vikram samvat you need to mention following things: 1. Vikram samvat year. 2008 AD is 2065 Vikrami-Samvat 2. Name the month. May 13 2008, is in the month named "Vaisakha" 3. Name the lunar fortnight (paksha). The bright fortnight following the full moon is called "Shukla" and one following new moon is called "Krishna". 4. Name the lunar Tithi or phase. There are 30 tithis in a month, 15 in each paksha. On May 13 2008, the tithi in Indian longitude is, "Navami" or the 9th tithi. So, the full date will be written as: Vaishakha Shukla Navami 2065 Vikrami-Samvat The information mentioned above is the minimum required. To spice up you can add more information from the Panchang, such as the Nakshatra (the star near which moon was present that day) etc. Search google for "panchang" or "panchanga" to get many sites that lists this info. e.g. panchanga for May 13 2008 Last edited by satyarthi on 20 May 2008 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 14 May 2008 12:04 am
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	Satyarthi! Thanks a bunch man! That astrology site you gave me is really detailed. Great find.
Top

Kaushal	Post subject: Posted: 18 May 2008 11:12 pm
BRFite Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 402 Location: SanFrancisco Bay Area	Quote: By the way, is there a one complete book on the British atrocities in India? Obviously not. The british would have banned it in a jiffy... .Now there are not a lot of people knowledgeable on the topic. It would b e a very large book. I have a small amount of such material in The South asia File. due to be available by June 1.
Top

ashish raval	Post subject: Posted: 19 May 2008 07:31 am
BRFite Joined: 09 Aug 2006 07:19 pm Posts: 264 Location: London	Cannot find a suitable post for it so posting it here. The video by Stephan Knapp on Vedic Friends Association. Very nice group of people including subhash kak, david frowley, armstrong etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdLMejDnlj0 p.s. Just a request to mod if it is possible to start a thread related to Ancient India (... - upto 10th A.D.)