Tuesday, August 18, 2009

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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2009 04:10 pm
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First a plain text file, with possible columns :

sl. no., description, district, state, ASI cicle name, occupation period, cultural identifier, bibliography, link to detailes files, etc.

I will state my purpose, this is to statistically analyze spatial and time wise correlations if any between occupation by cultures and "destruction/ruination". A preliminary assessment indicated that there is very good correlation between "length of Islamic occupation" and number/proportion of ruined pre-Islamic sites, although not in proportion to actual muslim and non-Muslim populations (estimated). This would show that it was not simply neglect from lack of "devotees".
The ASI also does not clearly indicate cultural basis always, this would be most interesting information. My additional column to thos egiven in ASI site was simply to assign cultural identifiers, but I am not confident of all my allocations. Also time of occupation is important.

A lot of details would be available in the print volumes from ASI. So it could be a tedious task. But once the database is up and running, this can be a solid basis for testing a lot of hypotheses.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 13 Apr 2009 08:23 am
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Fantastic idea brihaspati. Real world, practical, street smart.

What's more, people should be able to upload photos of these sites as well... there are tons of guys here continuously making visits to temples, ruins, etc... with families. Simply take a few pix and put them up on the site. In no time, this can become a truly valuable resource.

It can become a truly worthwhile collaborative effort. :!:


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 13 Apr 2009 12:06 pm
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
brihaspati ji, could I have your email ID plz ? alternatively you could drop me a line. (my email is in the signature of my profile)
thanks.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 13 Apr 2009 06:54 pm
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RM,
I tried to find your email as suggested. Couldn't. Here is mine, dikgajone at gmail dot com. Delete afterwards. Thanks.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 13 Apr 2009 09:33 pm
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A discussion page on

Why Did Human History Evolve Differently on Different Continents for the Last 13,000 Years?


Link to the talk:
The Talk

and


Wiki link on :
The Third Chimpanzee


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 13 Apr 2009 10:40 pm
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ramana wrote:

Quote:


As Pamela McCorduck notes, when one tries to understand the big picture formed by contrasts between human histories on different continents, that relegates some huge intra-continental problems to the category of "details' Û e.g., the history of the Indian subcontinent. For example, McCorduck is entirely correct in noting that the Indian subcontinent has a north/south axis as much as do the Americas or Africa, and that Jared Diamond's reflections...axis played a crucial role in Indian history: the southward spread of food production through India, after its quick west-to-east spread from the Fertile Crescent to the Indus Valley in the north of the Indian subcontinent, took thousands of years because of the inevitable delays in adapting crops and livestock to lower latitudes, rederiving them independently, or importing them (notably cotton and millet) from comparatively low latitudes in Africa.


Info is still yet to be verified

Quote:


(2) Diamond's article overlooks that agrarian-urban civilization was pioneered in the Middle East-India-China between 3500 and 200 BCE. Crete, Phoenicia, Asia Minor Greece, European Greece, Rome and eventually Western Europe were not pioneers but recipients of this civilization. One therefore would have to argue that there is something in acculturating societies which makes it easier for them to innovate, while the centers of old civilization carry the burden of too much and therefore inflexible civilization. Western Europe was a recipient third-hand of agrarian-urban civilization and did not even acculturate fully until c. 1000 CE -- contrary to Diamond it should therefore be carefully separated from the argument of civilizational evolution.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 15 Apr 2009 05:18 pm
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Do not know if this is off-topic but can anybody translate what is written on this coin from the Chola period?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uttama_coin.png

It actually indicates something incredibly interesting.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2009 12:58 pm
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Someone named "Observer" posted this link on my blog and asked for my response.

Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/books/review/Mishra-t.html?_r=1&ref=books


Here is what I wrote:

Doniger is not saying anything new. This is solidly in the Thaparite tradition - (1) hinduism is heterogenous (2) no unifying structure. This is typically accomplished by a highly selective quoting and interpretations severly limited by the agenda and sometimes illogical or irrational derivations found in the non-exact sciences.

Doniger’s thesis can be demolished quite easily - but it means discussing “hinduism”, which I am not sure I should go into right now. One of the primary contradictions of such works can be seen immediately even in the short summary by Mishra. That very “hinduism” which is “heterogenous”, non-unified, is also somehow strangely “syncretic”, “accommodating” at the same time. Were the “bhakti” cults not part of “hinduism” then? were they themselves homogeneous? (they definitely were not by Abrahaic standards of the West - for they were numerously subdivided into “sects” ) If they themselves were not homogenous, how could they all converge to similar or same ideals of “syncretism” and “accommodation”?

Doniger has a project that supplements the political need in a section of historians to delegitimize existence of underlying concepts of “cultural nationalism” and “unity” in the Bharatyia philosophies, incluidng its lokayata. For example she mentions the acceptance of atheism or agnosticism as part of “Hindu” philosophical tradition but carefully fails to mention that the eraliest proponents of such theories like Kapil in his Sankhyo, actually base their arguments on interpretations of the Vedas. Both atheists, and theists derive support from the same tradition and the very Sanskritic Vedas. Doniger of course cannot afford to highlight this. Doniger’s thesis is a complete failure of perception natural to someone who remains an alien in her outlook to the Bharatyia, and irrational in that inimitable way that only so-called professional historians can usually match.

Doniger sees only Sanskrit as a language of the minority elite. She ignores the linguistic dynamic of the subcontinent, the processes by which Sanskrit (itself meaning “re-edited/purified/cleaned”) was formed, and how it went through or generated prakrit, shourosheni, magdhi, odro-magdhi etc - giving rise to a majority of languages spoken now in India. Doniger’s lack of experience shows in her linguistic claims. Actually, more words of Sanskritic root are used at non-elite level than the elite level. It is at the elite level that loan-words and expresssions from Persian or Arabic or English manifest more, for obvious reasons of gerater interaction with foreign regimes.

Will think of whether this should take up a more elaborate response. Thanks for the ref, Observer!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you all please look at my response, and give your opinions? Alternatively any points to be added or can we all contribute to a more elaboarte response? In my blog I do not focus on "Hindu" or "Hinduism" except where it is relevant to deal with questions of aggression historical or future on Bharat sourced primarily from the Islamic bandwagon. So I may have limitations, but I would be willing to put up a page specifically for this and cite the team effort from BR.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2009 02:04 pm
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Brihaspatiji,
Some of your comments resonate well with a non-sanskrit-literate person like me. I was astonished by the amount of sanskrit words that have been in use in our daily life (at home, with friends, in marathi, hindi, gujarati, etc). I came to know about this only after enrolling into a sanskrit class for newbies by sanskrit bharati. The vocabulary although not completely known, was mappable to all the above mentioned languages with little effort. To my surprise, I am able to get a lot out of many languages ( especially malyalam, kannada, telugu )solely on the basis of my knowledge of gujarati, marathi and hindi.

On the flip-side, it is the elites, especially the political and royal elites that use the farsi/urdu usage more (as per my personal observations in the maratha royalty). This might be due to the long subservience to mughal and nadir shah sultanates. It is very funny to watch people switching to hybrid-marathi-urdu when talking like a royalty. Many maharashtrians get surprised when this is pointed out to them.

So absolutely agree about sanskrit not being exactly a miniscule elite language.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2009 02:32 pm
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brihaspati ji: You blog url please?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2009 02:39 pm
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dikgaj dot wordpress dot com
The comment and my reply appears on the "Dealing with Islamic Terror : Indian subcontinent" page


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2009 02:46 pm
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Abhi_G wrote:
Do not know if this is off-topic but can anybody translate what is written on this coin from the Chola period?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uttama_coin.png

It actually indicates something incredibly interesting.


Well I can not translate, but I can tell you what it is from Internet sources. It is supposed to be his name/legend in Devanagari.

Here is the source: http://lakdiva.org/coins/medievalindian ... la_ag.html


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2009 08:07 pm
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SG, about the coin.

viewtopic.php?p=654051#p654051

read the following posts too. I think you'll get the point abhi_g was trying to make.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 03 May 2009 01:53 am
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The Indus ‘non-script’ is a non-issue

Excerpts -

Quote:
“There is zero chance that the Indus valley is literate. Zero,” says Steve Farmer, an independent scholar in Palo Alto, California. “As they say, garbage in, garbage out,” says Michael Witzel of the Harvard University. These quotations from an online news item (New Scientist, April 23, 2009) are representative of what passes for academic debate in sections of the Western media over a serious research paper by Indian scientists published recently in the USA (Science, April 24, 2009).


Quote:
The “collapse of the Indus script thesis” has already drawn many responses, including the well-argued and measured rebuttal by the eminent Indus script expert, Asko Parpola, “Is the Indus script indeed not a writing system?” (Airavati 2008), and a hilarious and intentionally sarcastic rejoinder (mimicking the style of the “collapse” paper) by Massimo Vidale (“The collapse melts down”, East and West 2007). Here is a sampling from the latter: “Should we be surprised by this announced ‘collapse’? From the first noun in the title of their paper, Farmer, Sproat and Witzel are eager to communicate to us that previous and current views on the Indus script are naïve and completely wrong, and that after 130 years of illusion, through their paper, we may finally see the truth behind the dark curtains of a dangerous scientific myth.”


A lot of facts in the article.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 03 May 2009 07:10 am
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RahulM or Brihaspatiji one of you were looking for this:

India's indebtedness from 1898-1913


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 03 May 2009 07:22 am
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Dynastic History of North India-HC Ray


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 03 May 2009 01:58 pm
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Thanks, Ramanaji.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 04 May 2009 06:38 pm
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Abhi_G wrote:
Do not know if this is off-topic but can anybody translate what is written on this coin from the Chola period?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uttama_coin.png

It actually indicates something incredibly interesting.


I think K.A. N. Sastri refers to this coin in his book Cholas on page 194


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 04 May 2009 06:43 pm
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^^^^ Ramana ji,

The script is Nagari and it is the precursor of the current Bangla script as poster Himadri pointed out. Interesting thing is that the Cholas and others used this and granthi to write Sanskrit. I hope you understand the context of my post.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 04 May 2009 07:28 pm
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Why dont you read the book? Page 194. There was a revival during the Chola period and the Cholas were an expansionary power.

Anyway please provide the context of your post as I dont know what you are thinking if you dont say it.

Most prakrits of India started their revival from 8th century onwards.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 05:22 am
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Fellowships for books on modern India

Staff Reporter

CHENNAI: Aiming to address lack of scholastic work by Indian historians and social scientists on the post-Independence period, The New India Foundation seeks to sponsor works on modern India and for the fifth round of the Foundation’s fellowships, applications have been invited.

According to a press release from the Foundation, the fellowship, open to Indian nationals, carries a stipend of Rs. 70,000 per month and fellowship holders would be expected to write original books. Applicants have been invited to submit their resume, book proposal and a writing sample of at least 5,000 words (published or unpublished), to the Managing Trustee, The New India Foundation, 22 A Brunton Road, Bangalore 560025, before July 31, 2009. The applications could be sent by post or courier and email applications would not be considered, the release said. Queries could be addressed to ramguha@gmail.com. For details refer to www. newindiafoundation.org.


http://www.hindu.com/2009/05/05/stories ... 452000.htm

Airavat Can you work on this.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 08:51 am
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I'm no historian, and these fellowships are only for Modern Indian history (post-Independence). Some more digging reveals:

Quote:
Since 2004, a total of twenty New India Foundation Fellowships have been awarded, for books to be written on such topics as the social history of Telugu films, the reform of personal laws, refugee politics in north-eastern India, the history of the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, debates on the death penalty in India, and the science and politics of biodiversity conservation.

The fellowships will be decided by a jury whose members are André Béteille, Ramachandra Guha, Niraja Gopal Jayal, Nandan Nilekani, and N. Ravi.


Even if any jingos apply, they may not get approved by the above. The first three are hardcore leftists, the last is editor of Chindu, only Nilekani is the odd man out. Jingos should have their own fellowships and foundations.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 09:35 am
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
nilekani also considers himself a leftist.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 10:26 am
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Is there any particular reason why so many either Foreign based and rich or desi based and rich people like Nilenkani, Maniratnam, ArunDhati Roy, Pranoy Roy consider themselves as leftist, when under strict leftism such people would be in the oppressor class. What right do these people have the right to lecture the middle class on how lucky they and they must give more to charity while such people hoard wealth.

Is the defination of being a leftist in India mean you should compulsorily ant-hindu and has nothing to your economic ideology, the only ideology for leftists in India seems to be to preserve history as dictated by Europeans.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 10:40 am
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Aditya_V wrote:
Is there any particular reason why so many either Foreign based and rich or desi based and rich people like Nilenkani, Maniratnam, ArunDhati Roy, Pranoy Roy consider themselves as leftist, when under strict leftism such people would be in the oppressor class.


This is a strange paradox -- a group of people promoting the establishment of a state which will incarcerate them as enemies of the society. Arun Shourie noticed this tendency too among Indian intellectuals and called it a "strong desire to get oneself whipped."

Marxism is the opium of the intellectuals. It is driven by their snobbery and contempt for the unwashed masses. Few of them are able to think through to the logical conclusion of what will happen to them and common people if their wishes come to fruition. Neither are they capable of drawing lessons from states where communism was actually put into practice.

Typically, Marxism is a Western disease of the mind. It generally afflicts those elite Indians who look to the Whites as role models and suffer from a low-esteem about thier own national identity.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 10:45 am
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Aditya_V wrote:
Is the defination of being a leftist in India mean you should compulsorily ant-hindu and has nothing to your economic ideology, the only ideology for leftists in India seems to be to preserve history as dictated by Europeans.

Bang on target. Though a more apt term for these vermin is 'sekoolaarist' coz they are the first to start breast beating about how sekoolaarism is being destroyed by evil zionist fascists.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 11:26 am
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^^^^
The coin above Reads Uttama Chola in Devnagari. Uttam chola = Raj Raja I (?)

Ancient Coins with Devanagari legend are found across length and breadh of our des:

on coins of
1) Vira Kerala of Kerala
2) Cholas of Tamilnad, Coin of Raj Raja I (Nagari Legend Jay Chola
3) Manikya rajas of Tripura, Amar Manikya
4) Chauhans of Ajmer and Delhi
5) Siddharaj, Rana Hastin etc of Malwa
6) Kadamb of Goa
7) Yadav of Devgiri (Daulatabad)
8 ) Gahadvals of Kannauj & Kashi
9) Vijaynagar Empire

Devanagari was/is truly a national script


Last edited by Manasvi on 06 May 2009 05:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 11:53 am
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Thats what so galling about AIT and people proscribing with regards to AIT have built it on 2 huge myths, that Sankrit plays no part in South India. vaishnavism is for North Indians and Shaivism for south Indians.Tirpati, Srirangam etc don't exist at all. Total ignorance of use of both Sankrit and Tamil since ancient times where used by the Cholas and pandyas. No recognition of the existence of scriptors like the Divyaprabandhams.

They go to such an extent that in the recent Discovery Channel programme- Histroy of India such care was taken to potray all Tamilians as Shaivites that the man goes to the Banks of Kolidam and Cauvery and takes all pains to ommit all reference to Srirangam. Which cannot be an innocent mistake.

P.S- I accept Shaivism and Advaita is an intergral part of Tamil culture but sois Vashnavism and Shaivism is also practised in Punjab and Kashmir. And SHiva is mentioned many times in vedas and Puranas. So this whole concept that Shiva is not part of Vedas and Puranas which is so central to the AIT theory is plain absurd and anyone subscribing to it truly belives the world is flat.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 12:07 pm
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Aditya_V wrote:
Is there any particular reason why so many either Foreign based and rich or desi based and rich people like Nilenkani, Maniratnam, ArunDhati Roy, Pranoy Roy consider themselves as leftist, when under strict leftism such people would be in the oppressor class. What right do these people have the right to lecture the middle class on how lucky they and they must give more to charity while such people hoard wealth.

Is the defination of being a leftist in India mean you should compulsorily ant-hindu and has nothing to your economic ideology, the only ideology for leftists in India seems to be to preserve history as dictated by Europeans.


DIE may be apt term. Leftist is actually a misnomer for a non-Indian observer. For Indian Hindu observer, leftist has dual meaning. On economic side it denotes a commie but on a social-level it denotes anti-Hindu.

DIE jathi rose overtime started with social-conditioning by the colonial power to currently remote social-conditioning by western powers. Some DIEs have privileged upbringing with dominant parent being a DIE. Some DIEs rise out of lower or middle class but as they become rich by luck or hardwork see the media-created image of DIE rich person and want to emulate the DIE. Some DIEs who are educationally smart find ways to scholarships, awards, and other sponsorships to bring themselves into privileged level. Continuous managing of media image and aura of DIE sustains the DIE jathi over the generations. In a ideal case everybody that rises up to privileged or authority level mold themselves into DIE.

A DIE Hindu is devoid of Hinduness. Exhibiting Hinduness will reduce the social standing in the Jathi or one can become outcast. A DIE muslim exhibits pride in being Muslim but condemns extremists and maintains Islam means peace. A DIE christian also exhibits pride in being a christian and does a missionary work as social service and helps Hindus. A DIE hindu cannot have a DIE Muslim characteristic of taking pride as it reduces DIEness.

For DIE career either full-time or as hobby multiple avenues exist - Gandhian, Artistic, Charity, Activist, Media, Diplomatic. Important function of DIE jathi is to reduce any non-DIE power from rising up. Reward structure exists for those doing DIE functions.


Last edited by ShyamSP on 05 May 2009 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 12:13 pm
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Manasvi wrote:
^^^^
The coin above Reads Uttama Chola in Devnagari. Uttam chola = Raj Raja I (?)

Ancient Coins with Devanagari legend are found in length and breadh of our des:

1) Coins of Veera Kerala of Kerala
2) Cholas of Tamilnad
3) Manikya rajas of Tripura
4) Chauhans of Ajmer and Delhi
5) Siddharaj, Rana Hastin etc of Malwa

Devanagari was/is truly a national script


Actually Tamil and Devanagari scripts are same ** but evolved from source into different look. Observe many alphabets you see the similarity (esp non-rounded). Middle Indian language scripts (Oriya, Telugu, Kannada) are rounded but still evolved from the same source

** I know for any DMK guy it is hard to swallow :)


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 03:41 pm
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Airavat, Write your synposis and will get it read by the panel.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 04:39 pm
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Brishapatiji, Here is a Boloji article on Monsoon records in caves. It documents Dr Ashish Sinha's research.

http://www.boloji.com/environment/144.htm

and
Sinha slides
sinha paper


ShyamSP In the National Museum in Delhi there is granite slab that traces the evolution of the various scripts from Brahmi.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 04:50 pm
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X-posting this beautiful post by Stan_S

ramana wrote:
SS, if you look at South Indian history, you find that Tamils were embracing and welcoming people of other languages- Telugu, Chera and Kannada. There were princesses from these people. How did Tamils become insular, chauvinist and takleef types? Isnt against the grain of Tamil worldview? Was it the East India company association that nurtured the grievance mentality?

It seems like Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam, Kannada and Sanskrit were understandable in bits and pieces by most folks of the region, around 1000-1500 years back. I would attribute it to fluid dynastic/sectarian lines, advisors and courtiers spoke different languages and practiced different belief-systems within the dharmic fold, widespread tolerance was practiced to keep everyone happy. In fact, two of the five greatest Tamil epics, Silappadikaram and Manimegalai, concern Jainism and Jaina princes story of deceit, love, war, destruction, piety and remorse.

All this pigeonholing-into-a-box thing and Tamil-exclusivism came about not so far back. The first "us vs. them" that solidified caste-divisions came with Khiljis deep raids into Pandya country. It is not clear if caste divisions prior to the Khiljis were hereditary, but they were certainly fluid enough and respected in many sense, even though that would be hard to believe for the current-day sufferers. At the very least, there was no loss of H&D in losing a battle to "them."
Quote:

The more visible middle level castes include the land owning castes such as Vellalar, Ahamudayar (Servai), Maravar (Thevar), Kallar, Konar (Yadavar) and the Telegu speaking Naidus; trading castes such as Chettiyar, artisan castes like Kusavar or Kuyavan (Potter), Kotthan (mason), Thachan (carpenter), Kollan (blacksmith), Thattans or Nahai Aasari (goldsmith); and the servicing castes such as Ambattan (barbers) and Vannan (washermen). The more visible castes among the Scheduled Castes in Ramanathapuram district are the Pallars, Parayars and Chakkiliyars.

The Pallars were rulers once upon a time who went into bad economic fortunes and social apathy due to losses in wars etc. The word Pallan comes from those who were agriculturists in the low-lying lands (pallam), which was their subsistence after they went down the social hierarchy. The word Parayan comes from those who would beat the drum before a war (parai-saatrudhal). Some of them were accused of colluding with "them" and pushed down the ladder. Their prime job today is to beat the drum before family ceremonies and religious/social functions. Sakkiliyars are cobblers who ate and still eat beef. The trend I see is that social downgrading happened when folks lost wars to "them" or were associated with lost battles in some sense, either as betrayers or suspected-betrayers or descendants of betrayers, or started associating with trades related to cow-products or eating beef. Most likely, someone would dispute this "trend."

The EIC did not help and in fact, did a lot of stuff in engendering this divide. In fact, some of the "folk-stories" about the deceit of the Pallars is most likely myth-making that developed much later during the EIC-days. When the Palayakkarars (polygars) such as Kattabomman, Maruthu Sagotharargal, Dheeran Chinnamalai etc went head on against the EIC, the EIC indulged in much of this myth-making to divide and betray some of the caste-oriented folks. Further along came takleef against the Brahmins because they commanded a far higher proportion of the IAS/ICS/admin stuff than population figures for the Brahmin community. We can go on and on about how the Brahmins were successful, but in one brief line, they just used the skewed system much better than the rest. AIT did nt help matters and it formed the crux of the "us vs. them" battle of ideas which is only now being put down, slowly but steadily. The embers are still there, thats why caste-takleefs need to be, are and will be taken care of.

I used to hold anger at some of the reservation nonsense, but in hindsight, its good to move on and work harder if things are skewed against you. There will be peace sometime sooner than we think. In TN, caste is a hierarchical thing with the "non-existing" Brahmins being blamed by the fake-politicos for anything and almost everything. But most folks and their uncle knows that it is the so-called OBCs that indulge in some of the egregious acts. The area, which was/is now a strong Christian belt, is the prime rib metaphorically-speaking, in fact the center of the Palayakkarar wars.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 05:03 pm
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Ramana gaaru: You might find this book by Jacob Pandian Caste, nationalism and ethnicity useful too.

And also this: The Tamils Eighteen Hundred Years ago


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 May 2009 11:34 pm
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Not sure where to put it. As Rajiv Malhotra will say: Just another U-Turner.

Quote:
Buddhist Retreat
Why I gave up on finding my religion.
http://www.slate.com/id/2078486/

By John Horgan
Posted Wednesday, Feb. 12, 2003, at 3:54 PM ET
"Eventually, and regretfully, I concluded that Buddhism is not much more
rational than the Catholicism I lapsed from in my youth; Buddhism's moral and
metaphysical worldview cannot easily be reconciled with science—or, more
generally, with modern humanistic values.

For many, a chief selling point of Buddhism is its supposed de-emphasis of
supernatural notions such as immortal souls and God
. Buddhism "rejects the
theological impulse," the philosopher Owen Flanagan declares approvingly in The
Problem of the Soul. Actually, Buddhism is functionally theistic, even if it
avoids the "G" word. Like its parent religion Hinduism, Buddhism espouses
reincarnation, which holds that after death our souls are re-instantiated in new
bodies, andkarma, the law of moral cause and effect
. Together, these tenets
imply the existence of some cosmic judge who, like Santa Claus, tallies up our
naughtiness and niceness before rewarding us with rebirth as a cockroach or as a
saintly lama."


another link discussing the article

http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/04/29 ... -buddhism/


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 06 May 2009 04:08 am
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ShyamSP,

Mother of almost All Scripts in the eastern Hemisphere is BRAHMI

40 Scripts of Asia are directly related to Brahmi. Devnagari has derived from Brahmi. Actually speaking, it is a refined form of Brahmi. One can find close relation to present day structure of Devnagari with Gupt Era Brahmi.

The present numbers 1-9 and zero are actually 'stolen' from Brahmi.

Regarding Tamil's relation with Brahmi, it would be pertinent to note that there is an ancient script called Tamil Brahmi.

All the devnagari and other indian state scripts font development in Unicode is done with reference to Tamil Brahmi/ Brahmi.


Learn Ashokan Brahmi Yourself - Free Ebook:
http://coinsencyclopedia.org/PDF/BrahmiPrimerDec08.pdf

More info on Brahmi
http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/cgi-bin/script_disp.pl?brahmi


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 06 May 2009 04:42 am
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History of Tamil script, found at Dakshina Chitra, Chennai.
Photo taken by Rrjanbiah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Histo ... script.jpg


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 06 May 2009 05:10 am
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^^^^^

i have provided link to ancient nagari legend coins in the previous post.

Further to the previous post:

Nagari legend is found on the coins of:

Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Bhonsle

And a strange case

Mahmud of Gazni, Mahmadpur Mint, Arabic Kalima in Sanskrit language and Nagari script on rev, mentioning Allah as Invisible (avyakta) and Muhammad as Incarnation (Avatar) of Allah.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 06 May 2009 05:13 am
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Tamil Brahmi


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 06 May 2009 05:16 am
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SwamyG wrote:
Ramana gaaru: You might find this book by Jacob Pandian Caste, nationalism and ethnicity useful too.

And also this: The Tamils Eighteen Hundred Years ago

Check the review to the Jacob book

He still thinks about aryan and dravidians as real and two different ones.
He comes up with a new class

Quote:
Most Helpful Customer Reviews


5.0 out of 5 stars The Aryans claim to racial superiority is all a myth., November 2, 1999
By A Customer
The claim to racial and cultural superiority of the Aryans over the native dravidians is today found to be all a myth.Today we know that in social DNA the brains is from the south and the brawns is from the north.Modern day India is a tower of babel.There is no glory.A melting pot of confusion.The glory of India is in its ancient dravidian past.The glory of modern India today -- you find them all in silicon valley .U.S.A.The vast majority of software engineers today are all from the south not from the north .That speaks volumes.Even the atomic scientist ,physicists and nobel laurattes are all from the south.Comparatively the north indian aryans can,t brag none of these.Jacob pandians book is an eye opener.Ethnically the north indians are of distinct separate social DNA. The north indians are not indians .They are of non-dravidian extract and are of foreign origin.As Jacob Pandian has so clearly said that the north indian aryans and brahmins are dravidianised indians.A cross breed,of mixed descent.A most enlightening book.Its most unfortunate that the Hindi Raj subjugation of the south still continues today.Due recognition has not been given.As it has been since time immemorial the Hindi Raj has continued in its systemetic and scheming subjugation and manipulation of the south.The north indians don,t have the heartbeat of the south.The north indians neither mix nor blend with the south.It is still an Empire state as Jacob Pandian says.


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