Tuesday, August 18, 2009

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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 04:14 pm
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All the episodes are available online for free...i am posting one of the links of Shrimad Bhagwad Geeta time ...

Episode 74

It's available on youtube as well.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 04:39 pm
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Ashok actually never disbanded his military. He kept his image as a general intact in his empire. :) It is a different issue that India did not face foreign invasions during his time. His grandfather had already subdued the greeks in present Afghanistan and beyond.

Probably true. That even after him, the army was very much there is proved by the incident of the overthrow of the last Maurya king by a commander in the army. In fact, apart from the claims in Buddhist literature, and certain interpretations of rock edicts/columns do we really have a lot of evidence for Ashoka's supposed non-violence? It could have been more a political decision for unification of disparate groups in a far-flung empire. Similar decisions have been made by other "emperors" in similar situations, Constantine, Charles of the Franks, Vladimir of Russia, all used Christianity and its bishops as unifying framework. Ashoka, by his missionary zeal could also have had indirect influence on development of Judaic sects, and gifted us the two later revealed traditions. (last comment speculative and not meant seriously :) )


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 04:44 pm
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I wonder if people have watched the movie "the man from earth". :)


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 04:44 pm
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Ashoka, by his missionary zeal could also have had indirect influence on development of Judaic sects, and gifted us the two later revealed traditions. (last comment speculative and not meant seriously )


You might have point there.The Buddhist missionaries spreading out after the Hinayana-Mahyana split and planting Buddha idols everywhere they went in Central Asia did cause a lot of angst in the Muhammad crowd. in fact their term for iconoclast is bhut shikan ie Buddha breaker!


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 04:59 pm
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brihaspati wrote:
Probably true. That even after him, the army was very much there is proved by the incident of the overthrow of the last Maurya king by a commander in the army. In fact, apart from the claims in Buddhist literature, and certain interpretations of rock edicts/columns do we really have a lot of evidence for Ashoka's supposed non-violence?


He is Pushyamitra Sunga during whose time the greeks started to raise their heads once again. He is the object of hate by the leftist school of historians who parrot that Ashok was violent when he was Hindu (more brazenly "because" :) ), became non-violent by adopting Budhdhism and Pushyamitra Sunga basically reverted back the system to its Hindu moorings.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 05:04 pm
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btw, even romila thapar NOW accepts that charges of violence against pushyamitra sunga are unlikely to be true and was done by biased buddhist historians of a particular school since they lost the pre-eminent position in royal funding.
in fact examples of flourishing buddhist projects supported by the shunga court abound further discrediting the "violence against buddhists" idea.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 10:14 pm
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btw, even romila thapar NOW accepts that charges of violence against pushyamitra sunga are unlikely to be true and was done by biased buddhist historians of a particular school since they lost the pre-eminent position in royal funding.
in fact examples of flourishing buddhist projects supported by the shunga court abound further discrediting the "violence against buddhists" idea.

This whole Buddhism vs Brahmanism as it is called - may turn out to be a big piece of academic dishonesty. Many of the previously "Buddhist-repressor" kings are now found archaeologically to have actually patronized a wide variety of schools of thought and religious establishments - and we may seriously have to consider the possibility that Indian polity basically remained "secular" all along, although individual kings might have given "extra favours" for their personal beliefs. Even at the advent of Islamic armies, north India appears to have been dominated by Jainism, Buddhism, and to a lesser extent by Shaivism- so where is the Brahmanic repression of Buddhism (Odantapuri/Vikramshila/Nalanda could not have been flourishing under repression).


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2009 10:36 am
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here is one more scientific study blowing to smithreens the Aryan Invasion, Aryan Migration and Aryan Trickle-in theories:


Clikcy


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2009 10:50 am
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murugan, it is the same article I had posted a couple of pages earlier.

this was published a couple of years back. we need to look for newer articles.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2009 10:51 am
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Horses and Aryan Debate

(Airavat will like this)


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2009 10:52 am
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Rahul Saar,

Noted.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2009 11:13 am
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murugan, no need for those four letters after my name ! :)

thanks for the horse article, I believe I'm obsessed with this angle. :D
btw, I found something interesting :

http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2009 05:01 pm
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Rahul so long as its not saheb its OK. Ji or garu is better.

----
The syncretic historians say all those happened long ago so why study them but we see the effects even now.

X-Posted...

brihaspati wrote:

Almost all the features that we observe in the Pakjabi (Muslim) psyche can be linked to the peculiar circumstances under which they formed : from pre-Islamic Indic sects and cultures, who chose to surrender and compromise to preserve their life, limb or lands. We do not see them really seriously fighting any invading forces over historical periods.

The Shahyia dynasty which had influence over the area, became extinct fighting the invaders. To the north the kingdoms of Kabul and Zabul resisted. To the NE Muktapida from Kashmir, and Yasovarman from central India resiated, to the south-west Sindhis under Dahir resisted, to the SW, the Chalukyas of Gujarat resisted - but not Punjab proper. Later (post 1000) Chahamanas briefly resisted, but their power base was more to the east.

I have always wondered whether the fact that Multan worshipped a single Sun god (this apparently being the most powerful cult at the time of advent of Islam here), whether that prepared them psychologically to accept Islamic psyche more readily (Solar cults especially connected to monotheistic tendencies). The area could have been similar to the other fertile plain like Bengal delta, crisscrossed so many time by famished and greedy invaders - both local and foreign, that the best elements in society had been systematically wiped off fighting or resisting. What has been left over is mostly compromising survivor mentality - but at the same time a small persistent radicalism - probably a reaction to this compromise. (This is the peculiar combination I see - mostly opportunistic survival, siding with the invader - but pockets of persistent radicalism, which is paranoid of the "other", and just adopts the best ideology available to justify such paranoia - but consistent with its historical trauma I think)



Shows the need for multi-disciplinary approach to study history. What we have is psychologial-hisotrical analysis. This approach was made famous by studying the Stockholm Syndrome.


To add to brishaspatiji, I think its related to epical age which decimated the fighting class in the great war which was fought in that area. The fighting types got extinguished and what were left were the compromisers and the kshama types like Yudhhistir and his ilk.

When it was fight or die the ruling classes chose surrender and live. OK its seen elsewhere. But here they join the dark side. And they still retain their old clan names!

I think the real response to the Islamic onslaught was from Guru Nanakji who gave the people an unshakeable pillar of faith to hang on to. And later Gurus transformed this to an armed response.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Jan 2009 03:59 am
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ramana wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
Almost all the features that we observe in the Pakjabi (Muslim) psyche can be linked to the peculiar circumstances under which they formed : from pre-Islamic Indic sects and cultures, who chose to surrender and compromise to preserve their life, limb or lands. We do not see them really seriously fighting any invading forces over historical periods.


When it was fight or die the ruling classes chose surrender and live. OK its seen elsewhere. But here they join the dark side. And they still retain their old clan names!


Compare the Punjabis to their immediate neighbors, the Dogras of Jammu-Himachal, who survived and remained independent without converting. In the hills conversion to Islam happened in Kashmir, the Poonch-Rajouri belt, and Kishtwar. Jammu proper, and the whole of HP remained staunchly Hindu despite repeated attempts by the foreign rulers of Punjab and Delhi to crush them.

Similarly Uttarakhand, which was so close to Delhi, always remained Hindu. The Gharwalis and Kumaonis faced several invasions from the plains but did not submit unlike the Punjabis. Some of it maybe due to "tough terrain" but such terrain is also found in Kishtwar, Poonch-Rajouri, northwest Punjab, NWFP, etc?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Jan 2009 04:10 pm
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well, I think to explain the difference in resistance from apparently similar terrain - we need to consider actual timelines and the spatial angle.

First Islamic armies tended to pay more attention on fertile, well-irrigated lands - a natural tendency in nomadic invaders from arid areas.

Second distance from existing Muslim military power bases.

If you consider actual timelines, the NWFP came under attack for at least 250 years before it finally gave up - the "Hindus" resisted until 900's around Kabul and Zabul from the mid 600's. Persia, and Iraq were nearby bases of Muslim power. Moreover this area was particularly unproductive compared to the foothils of Himalyas and were dependent on trade passing through the area - which had been taken over by the Muslims.

Kashmir was singularly resistant to the Muslims - we have evidence that the Kashmiris were sought after allies by the Chinese in fighting the Islamic armies as well as Tibet. This resistance went on for nearly 700 years. Muktapida stopped the Islmaic advance into Kashmir, and the Shahyia fugitives were given asylum in Kashmir. Kashmir fell to Islam much later than the rest of northern India- almost at the start of decline of the Delhi Sultanate. (The area was also under severe drought, at the time - one of the driest in over a thousand years). But then again you can see that the advance was from the power bases of the Muslims - in Multan ( I mean a more comprehensive socio-military base rather than just military outpost like Delhi at this stage) and the further it goes it loses momentum if the locals have the resources and will to fight back - as reflected in the west-to-east decrease of Islamic proportions. (Let us also not forget several attempts by the "converted" to "return" and some dumb fools from the "unconverted" who refused to recognize their re-entry).


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Jan 2009 10:59 pm
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from Pioneer op-ed 23 jan., 2009

Quote:
Preserving national identity

Sandeep B

As long as the Indian collective consciousness preserved the primacy of Vedic national unity, India could be invaded but not broken. And it is to this that we must return to keep India united

Last week, two seemingly unconnected articles appeared about India. They were unconnected in time but unified by theme. Rajiv Malhotra’s “We, the nation(s) of India” in Tehelka (17 January) was a dispassionate analysis of the dangers today’s India faces mostly from within but powerfully abetted by fissiparous forces from outside. The Belgian scholar, Koenraad Elst’s review of Shrikant Talageri’s latest book Rigveda and the Avesta: Final Evidence refocuses on one of the defining periods of pre-ancient India, which is still the subject of much controversy in Indological studies worldwide, and which has far-reaching effects both today and in future.

Rajiv Malhotra’s piece identifies the extent of divisiveness that, if left unchecked, will splinter India sooner than later. He calls into evidence an array of internal and external factors contributing to this phenomenon from such diverse fields as academia, media, white supremacy, pop Hindu gurus, history, politics, sports, and Bollywood. He concludes that today’s urgent need is for the ‘Indian genius’ to “improvise, innovate, and create a national identity worthy of its name.”

In other words, to wage a long, aggressive, and decisive battle to rediscover what India has lost. To abandon Jawaharlal Nehru’s ill-understood Discovery of India in favour of a true Rediscovery of India. To study why Alexander’s invasion was akin to an ant-bite to India but why India suffered massive casualties on all fronts at the hands of successive Muslim marauders. To that end, Shrikant Talageri’s book must be made mandatory reading to all Indians with the national interest at heart.

A polyglot, poet, scholar, a fierce proponent of Sanatana Dharma, and a warm friend, Shatavadhani R Ganesh terms Rig Vedic India as the ‘most romantic period’ in the entire history of this nation. A cursory reading of the literature about that period shows us that it was a very ‘happening’ era — from sweeping natural changes to revolutionary inventions in metallurgy, politics, town-planning to intense philosophical speculation, the India of 5,000-plus years past was an exciting time to live in. Most significantly, it was the womb that nurtured the defining seed of an entire civilisation and way of life sustained till today. That despite continual natural threats — of rivers drying up, of cattle dying and other unforeseen natural disasters — Rig Vedic India was able to produce such masterpieces of philosophy as the Nasadiya Sukta is verily a wonder.

All things were equal as long as the natives accepted the Aryan Invasion Theory. In a line, the AIT negates all achievements of ‘native’ Indians using the following concocted narrative: The 5,000-year-old Indian history is one unbroken tale of alien invasions, and thus, the credit for all achievements doesn’t really belong to them. In a stroke, this provided the logical premise for the imbecilic grand conclusion that India was never a nation. Our early home-grown Communists zealously championed this ‘theory’ for several decades.

However, it is now part of academic history that each new scholarly investigation in this area drawn from different disciplines — archeology, linguistics, and maritime studies — was an additional nail added to the coffin of the spurious AIT.

As Elst shows, Talageri’s new book draws evidence directly from the internal chronology of the Rig Veda. But Talageri’s masterstroke lies in paying the AIT proponents back in their own coin. He uses about two centuries’ worth of AIT scholarship and reaches precisely the opposite conclusion: No Aryans migrated into India. To quote Elst, “Talageri compares the contents of the oldest layer… books six, three and seven; of the middle layer, books two and four; and the youngest layer, comprising books one, five, eight, nine and 10. Covering every verse… and comparing the three periods, he finds a shifting focus in the names of animals, plants, rivers, landscape features, technology, ancestors, ethnic groups, and in personal name types and verse forms… the old layer was indubitably composed in the Yamuna/Saraswati region, which was to remain the centre of gravity of Vedic culture; the middle layer’s horizon expands westwards as far as the Indus; while the youngest parts are also familiar with Afghanistan. This is exactly the opposite of what the AIT predicts.”

This is where Indians need to trace their ‘national identity’ to. This also demolishes the dubious ‘Dravidian identity’ thereby razing the paper-thin foundation of Karunanidhi’s brand of politics. As long as the Indian collective consciousness preserved the primacy of this Vedic national unity, India could be invaded but not broken. And it is to what we must return to reunify India.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 02:23 am
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Quote:
The Belgian scholar, Koenraad Elst’s review of Shrikant Talageri’s latest book Rigveda and the Avesta: Final Evidence refocuses on one of the defining periods of pre-ancient India, which is still the subject of much controversy in Indological studies worldwide, and which has far-reaching effects both today and in future.


http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... -book.html

Quote:
Monday, January 5, 2009
A great book about the Great Book
The new book by Shrikant Talageri, claiming to present “the final evidence” on the Indo-European Homeland question, goes a long way indeed in disproving the Aryan Invasion Theory and establishing India as the land of origin of the migrations that spread the Indo-European language family over half of the Eurasian continent, from Bengal to Portugal and from Lanka to Norway.



The kinship between the languages spoken by most Indians and by most Europeans, jointly known as the Indo-European (IE) language family, is usually explained through the Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT). The AIT holds that in the mid-second millennium BC, a group of immigrants brought the Indo-Aryan branch of IE from Russia through Central Asia into India and then imparted it to the natives. Alternatively, the Out-of-India Theory (OIT) holds that the common homeland of IE was in India, whence some groups emigrated to Central and West Asia and Europe, where their dialects mingled with local languages to become Greek, Slavic, Germanic, etc. Recent attempts to give a convincing formulation to the OIT and buttress it with evidence were still clumsy or fragmentary, but now, the OIT has come of age with Shrikant Talageri’s book: The Rigveda and the Avesta, the Final Evidence (Aditya Prakashan, Delhi).

In earlier books dated 1993 and 2000, Mumbai-based self-taught scholar Talageri (°1958) had already built a case for the following scenario. In the pre-Rigvedic age, a group of IE-speaking tribes populated the central and western Ganga plain and some of these migrated westward to the Saraswati basin in what is now Haryana and Rajasthan, and on to the Indus basin from Panjab to Afghanistan. By the time the earliest Vedic hymns were composed (tentatively dated to beyond 3000 BC), the westernmost tribes, known in Sanskrit sources as the Druhyus, were leaving the subcontinent, filling up Central Asia, thence to migrate to Anatolia, Xinjiang and Europe. The remaining peoples in the northwest, known as the Anavas, were mainly speakers of Iranian; while Indo-Aryan developed in central North India, whence it expanded westward into then-Iranian territory. Of the Indo-Aryan speakers, it is the Paurava tribe and within it the Bharata clan that produced the Rigveda. The friendly and hostile interactions between the Iranians and the Paurava Indo-Aryans form part of the historical background of the Rigveda and the Avesta. Among the conflicts, the main ones were the Battle of the Ten Kings, between the Bharata king Sudas and a confederacy of tribes in whose names we can still recognize Iranian ethnonyms; and the Varshagira Battle, to which both the younger part of the Rigveda and the earliest part of the Avesta refer. At the end of this confrontation, the Iranian centre moved to Afghanistan, those who remained in the subcontinent assimilated into Indo-Aryan.

In the present book, Talageri strengthens his thesis with a lot of new evidence, and refines it considerably. The master key for discerning historical expansions and migrations is the internal chronology of the Rg-Veda. Basing himself on two centuries of Western scholarship, from 19th-century German Veda scholar Oldenburg to present-day AIT champion Prof. Michael Witzel, Talageri compares the contents of the oldest layer, largely coinciding with books 6, 3 and 7; of the middle layer, books 2 and 4; and the youngest layer, comprising books 1, 5, 8, 9 and 10. Covering every verse and every instance of every category considered, and comparing the three periods, he finds a shifting focus in the names of animals, plants, rivers, landscape features, technology, ancestors, ethnic groups, and in personal name types and verse forms.

The result is of such clarity and consistency that most scholars who have been working in this field will feel envy and embarrassment at never having noticed the contours of the scenario before. It is this: the old layer was indubitably composed in the Yamuna/Sarawati region, which was to remain the centre of gravity of Vedic culture; the middle layer’s horizon expands westwards as far as the Indus; while the youngest parts are also familiar with Afghanistan. This is exactly the opposite of what the AIT predicts. In an invasionist scenario, the oldest layer would obviously be based in Afghanistan and be as yet unfamiliar with India’s interior, which would then only be settled in the younger period.

Another spectacular finding is that the early Avesta, involving Zarathustra, coincides in time with the youngest period of the Rigveda. The material and religious culture, along with the vocabulary and the name-types, allow us to link a number of datable extra-Indian connections to the youngest layer of the Rigveda. The remnants of Indo-Aryan vocabulary in the West-Asian Kassite (17th BC) and Mitanni (15th BC) culture, bequeathed by Indo-Aryan-speaking emigrant groups of at least several generations earlier, belong to the youngest period. This implies that the Rigveda must have been completed by ca. 2000 BC.

Another emigrant group is the one whose settlement has been dug up in Sintashta, on the eastern slopes of the Ural mountains in Russia. This is where the oldest horse-drawn chariots have been found, dated to ca. 2000 BC. The burials show a number of ritual features which Witzel has connected to the Rigveda in a bid to buttress his thesis that the Sintashta people were proto-Indo-Aryans on the way to India. But of each of these features, including the fabled horse sacrifice, Talageri shows that they are typical of the late period of the Rigveda, unattested in the older periods. So, more likely, the Sintashta people were part of a succession of small westward emigrations (small by India’s demographic standards but highly noticeable in the thinly-populated countries of settlement) around the end of the period of Rigvedic composition. This time seems to coincide with the end of the urban Harappan period, probably due to desiccation, when north-western India became less capable of supporting its dense population.

An Indo-Aryan presence in Russia was noticed by the ancient Greeks (e.g. the Sindoi in the Crimea) and remains visible in dozens of loanwords in the Uralic languages. The latter too have often been presented as testimony of the Indo-Aryans’ stay among the Uralic peoples while on their way to India. But from the unidirectional pattern of borrowing, with not a single Uralic loan in Indo-Aryan, Talageri shows that this is impossible. On the contrary, the pattern fits the opposite scenario: the Indo-Aryan loans in Uralic, like those in Mitanni-Hurrian and in Kassite, were the gift of emigrant groups from the Indo-Aryan heartland, which was India. Here, Talageri has made up for his lack of knowledge of the Uralic languages with a penetrating logical analysis of the relevant findings of other, AIT-bound scholars. Indeed, logic is where this non-specialist outshines all the specialists and manages to use their own data in support of conclusions opposite to the ones they profess.

Talageri argues that spoked-wheel chariots are not simply in evidence “in the Rigveda”, as the Orientalists have known since the 19th century, but are specifically typical of its youngest period. The older parts know of carts, generally with four full wheels, but the chariots with two spoked wheels are a later development. The archaeological record is pretty silent on their first appearance, for none have been dug up from reputedly Indo-Aryan or Indo-Iranian settlements in the Andronovo culture (Kazakhstan), the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex or India. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially in the case of largely wooden constructions in a hot and humid climate like India’s. From the late-Rigvedic testimony reasonably dated to the late 3rd millennium BC, it may be deduced that they were first produced on a sizable scale in India, whence groups of specialist craftsmen-warriors and other emigrants took them to western lands.

Talageri’s reconstruction of Vedic and Indo-European history is exclusively based on primary data and on findings by scholars working within the AIT framework. He never relies on the theses of other AIT sceptics. The latter’s findings on astro-chronology, archaeology and linguistics are generally compatible with his scenario extracted from the literary data, but they are independent witnesses, not part of Talageri’s evidence basis. Thus, in the book’s introduction the reader will notice traces of an ego clash between the author and Greek OIT scholar Nicholas Kazanas (whose collected papers on this subject are about to be published by Aditya Prakashan as well). While I hope at the personal level that they make up and become friends again, at the polemical level this quarrel is a fortunate thing. In contrast with the AIT school, a network of mutual support where we see R.S. Sharma and Romila Thapar relying on the “evidence” of Michael Witzel’s well-refuted assertion that the post-Vedic literature describes an Aryan invasion, the OIT school consists of isolated individuals who have no other support than from the data themselves.

It will be held against Talageri that he gets too personal in his argumentative jousting with Prof. Witzel, whose rebuttal of his own second book he now rebuts in turn. The objection that he is only paying Witzel back in the latter’s own coin could be a fair excuse in the playground but not on a scholarly forum. The allegations of academic malpractice even carry over to his rebuttal of a linguistic argument by the mild-mannered Prof. H.H. Hock, for which I can find no excuse at all. These breaches of form, along with eccentricities regarding referencing and emphasis, and along with “bank clerk” Talageri’s lack of academic status, are the flaws sure to be exploited against him by those who prefer not to address the formidable challenge posed by his cast-iron argumentation. On the other hand, the quality of Talageri’s work is such that this time, at least some established academics are bound to acknowledge its importance.

The book’s final chapter is a refreshing antidote of sanity against all the hot-headed political abuse that has disfigured the Aryan homeland debate in the last few decades. In Talageri’s opinion, nothing in particular follows from ancient history for contemporary ethnic and caste groups in India. Thus, today’s Yadava “caste”, actually a conglomerate of several cattle-raising castes, is not the physical progeny of the Vedic tribe of the same name. Brahmin clans like Bharadwaj or Bhargava who continue the names of Vedic seers may genuinely comprise the latter among their ancestry but have visibly been mixed with the local population of whichever Indian region where they settled.

Once the OIT gains acceptance, quite possibly some European roots-seekers might start identifying with the Druhyus as their linguistic ancestors and feel honour-bound to adopt the latter’s ancient bias against the Anavas and Pauravas, now turning it against the modern Iranians and Indians. But in fact, languages like Greek and Germanic comprise a very large substrate of pre-IE native vocabulary, and it is from those pre-IE natives that modern Europeans have inherited most of their genetic make-up, rather than from the IE-speaking “Druhyu” immigrants who largely managed to impart their language through a process of elite recruitment. (Why exactly the IE-speakers from the east were accepted as an elite by the European natives, remains to be understood.) The white Europeans are largely the linguistic but only minimally the physical progeny of the brown Aryans.

For most OIT authors, this rejection of the abuse of history for identity politics, which has already done so much harm to India (as in Tamil anti-Brahmin and “anti-Aryan” separatism), will be a matter of course. But they may not applaud Talageri’s related rejection of a very widespread Hindu bias regarding the Rigveda, viz. the belief that its battles are part of a struggle between good and evil, with the Vedic kings representing the good side. In fact, the Vedic king Sudas who won the Battle of the Ten Kings was a Paurava imperialist invading Anava territory, and the ten kings were legitimately defending their own territory against him. Sudas may have been the hero of the Rigveda’s 7th book, “but”, so Talageri warns, “he is not the hero of this book”.

To sum up, the Rigveda is not a God-given text exclusively dealing with cosmic stuff, where all names and data are merely symbolic pointers to some Great Beyond. No, they refer to real people and historical events, and nothing human is alien to this ancientmost collection of hymns. But this only increases the merits of the Rishis, the composers who praised the gods in their hymns. Obviously, without their testimony, Talageri’s reconstruction of early Indian and IE history would have been impossible. We might never have been able to locate the IE homeland. All the Orientalists, including Michael Witzel and the present writer, owe a debt of gratitude to Angiras, Vishvamitra, Vasistha and the other Vedic seers, and to their contemporary scion, Shrikant Talageri.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 05:14 am
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brihaspati wrote:
First Islamic armies tended to pay more attention on fertile, well-irrigated lands - a natural tendency in nomadic invaders from arid areas.


Actually Islamic armies paid attention to any center of wealth, not just fertile land. The Arabs from Sind tried to expand in all directions, north into Punjab, east into Rajasthan, south into Gujarat. They even attempted naval attacks in Gujarat and Maharashtra.

But the Arab armies were repulsed everywhere and the final crushing blow was delivered by the confederacy of Rajput clans under the Pratihars. After that Muslim power in Sind was broken into two small states of Mansurah and Multan.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 05:17 am
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Indians need to start tying together the various components. Is there a relationship between ( the fact of ) OIT and the rise of monotheistic cultural terrorism within a western imperial context? Quite Possibly.

As Shri Kosla Vepa has remarked, Darius knew about the Indian homeland and left the Eastern flank relatively unattended; after all, Bharat was only a sister (actually, mother) civilization. The same dynamic applied to Bharatiya view of its western border. Furthermore, Persians tried to apply the same geostrategic logic with the Greeks; arguing, probably with good evidence, that Perseus, the founder of the Greeks, had a Persian origin. Probably, the Greek connection to Persians was common knowledge at the time. But the Greeks denied the Truth of their origins. Monotheism was a consequence of this Greek endeavor.

With the demise of Persia, which was (at least) a 750 year Greco-Roman imperial project, the Indic western border threat opened up. Previous Central Asian incursions ( e.g. Hunas ) were only a small nuisance by Indian continental standards. For example, there is no Magyar speaking state in the heart of India as there is in Europe. Nor was there ever a threat perception from the west. Actually, the extreme of monotheism was *required* to reverse the general east-to-west migratory trajectories and gradients observed by the OIT group, Oppenheimer, Nichols, and so on. Alexander was the first, and only with the advent of Islam was the western border breached.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 05:24 am
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Welcome Dhu. I hope you enjoy and contribute to the forum. Once again a warm welcome.

There is book by an Indian historian, Bhagwati Sharan Upadhaya called the "Ancient World" which gives good description of the Persians and Greeks.

Ancient World

Downwload the djvu version.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 05:29 am
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
brihaspati wrote:
(the texts indicate that this happened at some time point, before which this was not hereditary)


Rahul M wrote:
could you put a date on that ?
thanks.

brihaspati wrote:
Exact dates would depend on the timing of the narratives - which at present are quite controversial. Some of the Puranas like Vayu Purana (ref about Krita Yuga), Ramayana, Uttara Kanda (ch. 74) - krita to treta transition, Mahabharatm, Shanti Parva - section 188 (all were twice-born - divided subsequently by occupational degeneracy), Aitareya Brahman (eating scarifical portion due to Brahman, is capable of entering Brahmanship completelyin the 2nd or 3rd generation - same for other lines), Satyakama in Chandogya Upanishad, and Kavasha, son of Ilusha in Aitareya Brahman -etc, indicate thatthe possible transition was between the Vedic and the epic. Placing genetic indications from the South, and keeping Mhabharata war around 4th millenium BCE, I would hazard a guess of around 3000-4000 BCE in the South and a 2000-3000 BCE in the North. This is not exact, and my personal opinion only - and more of this here would be perhaps OT. :)


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 05:41 am
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RahulM whats the context? And where was the original posted?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 06:40 pm
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Organiser covers the History Conf in Delhi!

History Conf

Did Pioneer cover it?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 09:03 pm
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ramana gaaru: That is from the Love thread...


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 11:59 pm
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Quote:
Dhu wrote
Indians need to start tying together the various components. Is there a relationship between ( the fact of ) OIT and the rise of monotheistic cultural terrorism within a western imperial context? Quite Possibly.


Dhu-ji, you have raised several significant questions. I had at first thought of not adding my bit, as this can perhaps go on into pages. You can blame Ramanaji for redirecting my attention. :D

There can possibly be a connection to OIT and what you call monotheistic cultural terrorism. But I would rather think of it from entirely different viewpoint. Monotheism almost always appears in connection with the need for unification, either for a society under threat of fragmentation or for an empire where a regime needs homogenization and subjugation of disparate units under single central authority. Examples of the former would be Adi Shankara's advaita, Chaitanya/Basavanna's movements. Examples of the second will be Akhenaten, the Mosaic system (faced with unification needs against Canaanites) , Constantine, Carolus Magnus of the Franks, and of course the ideology of the "last" prophet of Islam. There is no direct reason as to why OIT should in itself give rise to monotheism, unless OIT specifically can be shown to give rise to monotheism, by sponsoring the two factors given above.

We have to remember that OIT also should strictly speaking encompass a migration ina different direction - that through the north-west passage but taking a more easterly route towards Siberia. Eventually this migration intermingled with more southerly expansions out of India through SE Asia, to form the various communities of China, Korea and Japan, and eventually the early Americans. We do not see such monotheistic cultural terrorists (I am not considering modern China - but previous Chinese empires, even though evolving towards a type of monotheism were still not culturally terroristic towards India).

I would hazard a hypothesis here, (supporting this with narrative reference would take pages :) ) : maybe we should consider the possibility that at least some of the OIT migrations had a strong component of enforced migration or expulsions of Indic tribes and groups who either lost out over territorial resources or could not compete with those who remained. For reasons of migrations we can look at modern migrations - and we can reasonably assume thatsimilar causes drove people in the past. Druhyas, Panis - there are clear narratives of Indic groups losing out or being expelled who settle increasingly more and more to the west. Is it possible that these groups carried memories of their "uhrheimat" and always had a social psychological urge to return "home"? Simultaneously just as modern victims of forced migrations, did they carry a social anguish and a deep seated need for "revenge" and reconquering? Monotheism would then become just a tool for simplification of rules and unification. The Greeks and Romans were not monotheistic incidentally - and Alexander definitely was not. Just like Cyrus, Alexander is reputed to have encouraged multiple religions and even sponsor them himself. Also there are hints of this compromise or apparent abandonment of insistence on monotheistic violence in the Old Testament references to "reasons behind the fall" of Solomon (tolerance of his wives' native religions and even shadow of suspicion of participating in them - possibly an allegory to religious tolerance).

The recognition of ancient links could be a motivator to get even - to overcome that source which disinherited. There could be a longshot about moon+Shiva+megalithic phallic/fertility cults in the Islam story. But OT here probably (the use of lunar symbols in common with lunar cults in Canaan and a synbol of Shiva as well - stories of Lat/Manat taking refuge at Somnath - phallic rock symbols, some of which might have been reshaped under Islam, etc...)


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2009 01:40 am
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durgesh wrote:
All the episodes are available online for free...i am posting one of the links of Shrimad Bhagwad Geeta time ...

Episode 74

It's available on youtube as well.


thanks for the info durgesh ... heres the link for youtube : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1HV5Zwjnh0


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2009 06:56 pm
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Brihaspatiji,

I don't believe that any one of us has all the answers but we can piece together much of what we need from different sources.

IMO, there are only four monotheisms: Christianity, Islam, Communism, and Western Grand Narrative (Secularism, Liberalism, Manifest Destiny, Racism, American Individualism, etc). Advaita, Buddh"ism", Chinese traditions, and so on are 'experiential' entities and not 'belief' and ideological entities in the fashion of monotheism. There are authors (namely the Ghent group) which have systematically explored the differences between orthopraxic heathen traditions and the orthodox believer "religions". Centralization as seen with China, Mauryas, are not same as the religions required to prop up empires.

Under colonial conditions, a monotheist veneer can be imparted to these traditions; thus we can now speak of Sikh monotheism, Brahmo Samaj, and Buddhism as protest against "brahmanism". As said by Shri Ram Swarup, the British ruled through Indology. But the Gurus are not prophets militating against the unbelief of idolators; this is a simply "point" reinterpretation by Indology and imparted to susceptible elements in the community with colonial intent. The point is that the lineage of "prophetic gurus" is revisionist history and reinterpretation of an authentic tradition of gurus.

Judaism is remarkable in that, unlike Christianity and Islam, there is not just one prophet, nor is there an abrogation of previous versions of the revelation. In fact, in the first century "kingdom", there was a veritable proliferation of prophets, all predicting end of the persecuting Empire. "Last Prophet" psyops was instituted only with Christianity, quietening the revolutionary chatterati.

The Sikh guru lineage ended with the martyred sons of Guru Gobindji. Upon this edifice was instituted the colonial indology's claims of the gurus abolishing idolatry and the like. Apparently the Gurus were all consummate anti-Hindus and their anti-empire efforts were all incidental posturing. To us, the revisionist history is obvious, but the multiplicity of Judaic prophets all similarly have Bel and El inscribed within their names. OT Genesis' geopolitical landscape (Shem, Ham, Japeth) is an exact match for the Alexandrian successor empires (Seleucid, Ptolemaic, and mainland). No other period of history has a correspondence even in broad outline.

What happened in the west is fundamentally different from 'sour grapes' of exiting groups. For example, we can trace Buddhism without difficulty throughout the Far East, including even Siberia; it is rather transparent. But when we expect to see the same type of transparency in West Asia; it is rather opaque. It is not enough to say that the records were destroyed by the iconoclastic and book burning christians; that would only be circular reasoning. What we in fact see is Christianity in the stead of Buddhism. From the Ghent group's analysis, we know that all the purported similarities between Christianity and Buddhism are merely superficial and Reformation influenced theorizing.

As you point out Chinese and East Asians never came to India to destroy the Buddha statues out of a sense of inferiority. They were also able to centralize without resorting to monotheism. That is, heathens are certainly capable of having centralized states. Neither is Adi Shankara a partisan on behalf of the state.

pan-Europe concept only came with Christianity. Why were they not able to evolve a Bharatiya or Han-type identity with an intact "polytheism"?

And then we have the interesting statements from the Ghent group localizing Normative Ethics to the 'Ethica Nichomachea' of Aristotle (the article has been apparently deleted from Sulekha). Aristotle is Alexander's "teacher".

Monotheism has an inbuilt mechanism to escape the scrutiny of the victim. The victim's gaze is directed elsewhere, eg the native ancestor, while imperial action as remain unexamined. the victim will even celebrate his capitulation as revolution and his degradation as self-assertion. Under these circumstances, it is incredulous to expect some nondescript palestinian tribe to come up with Monotheism.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2009 08:11 pm
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Dhu-ji,

Now I think we are going into more detailed analysis of monotheism per se. I was just responding to the connection to OIT angle. My points were only in respect of primarily the two later strands of what we loosely called the revealed traditions - and their apparent obsession with "conquering" "heathen" India. It is the sense of hostility and the desire to erase Indic "culture" that I was trying to relate. The main problem with the "local" reaction against "conquering Indic cultures" coming out of India theory is as I see it, that OIT had also NE Asian components almost along similar timelines, and we do not see obvious similar developments. So OIT alone would not explain this reaction. If we say it was prior native populations which resented this later expansion - then we have to wait for more genetic evidence, as at the moment, it does seem that the major peopling of the middle -east did indeed happen from western Indian expansions - so that there could not have been sufficient pre-existing populations to carry on social memories of "trauma". So I hypothesized, that there were probably differences in the nature of migrations among the various branches - and some were expelled while others simply move out of necessities not connected to human action, say droughts etc. Mere expansions need not always engender murderous hostility - since another significant and better documented OIT took place in SE Asia, (agreed, much later than the ones you are referring to) before Islam in those parts we do not see any such retaliatory initiatives back on India.

The origins of the revealed traditions (communism could be thought of as an inversion of Judaeo-christian traditions) probably also needs other components which can be discussed.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2009 09:43 pm
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One of the primary arguments used in timing stages of development - rates of mutation - in linguistics, genetics is that current greater diversity of forms should appear at the earlier origin or source. If we extend that logic to philosophies or ideologies (they also mutate - and in fact could have great similarities to language itself) then we can have a theory of why we find the great diversity of religions and faiths or belief systems within the Indian heartland. A reasonable analogy to linguistic/genetic mutation will therefore indicate much greater diversity in the source region than in other areas where people simply carried over these ideas but where therefore they had much less time to "mutate" and proliferate. Of course there would be many other factors that modify this.

The much longer time line could also indicate why Indic philosophies show a tendency to evolve into meta-religions - frameworks or theories for religion rather than religions themselves. This is the fundamental difference from the later branches - and appears to be polytheistic to others. As a framework, it can analyze and put each "religion" or particular faith in its "box" within the framework. The revealed traditions therefore have great difficulty in comprehending and analyzing this as they simply do not have the tools.

Revealed traditions in particular carry the stamp of arising out of desert/arid marginal/subsistence economies which were in constant military conflict over scarce reproductive resources. Such conditions explain a lot of the tendencies :

(1) a great need to look for fertile, irrigated lands - fresh water/gardens
(2) a hatred of "luckier", richer economies - and therefore of the "city" and its "cosmopolitanism" - interpreted as "loose morals/sin"
(3) a great emphasis on sex for reproduction - and penalization of deviations
(4) greater demand for male births, as males are lost in military conflicts, and simultaneously greater demand for women, if needed to be acquired from conquered populations - for reproduction of more fighting males (this is something that could perhaps be shared by populations in and around India that faced wars of attrition in the past)
(5) simpler economies but occasional exposure to the riches of the "city" leading to intolerance of complexity, fear of loss from the group by "seduction", and the need for strict rule based faith systems and protecting reproductive resources, - probably an important factor behind proposition of a single supreme authority - this defence against "corruption" gives rise to the "siege" mentality so peculiar even in the philosophical characteristics.
(6) an inherent hatred and desire to erase more sophisticated and complex urbanized/cosmopolitan cultures that sit on fertile/well irrigated lands.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2009 10:05 pm
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If we extend that logic to philosophies or ideologies (they also mutate - and in fact could have great similarities to language itself) then we can have a theory of why we find the great diversity of religions and faiths or belief systems within the Indian heartland. A reasonable analogy to linguistic/genetic mutation will therefore indicate much greater diversity in the source region than in other areas where people simply carried over these ideas but where therefore they had much less time to "mutate" and proliferate. Of course there would be many other factors that modify this.



Interesting approach. Of course selection pressure may explain the lack of diversity in the desert religions. Those freethinkers were literally eliminated from the gene pool or meme pool.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2009 02:01 am
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Monotheism has an inbuilt mechanism to escape the scrutiny of the victim. The victim's gaze is directed elsewhere, eg the native ancestor, while imperial action as remain unexamined. the victim will even celebrate his capitulation as revolution and his degradation as self-assertion. Under these circumstances, it is incredulous to expect some nondescript palestinian tribe to come up with Monotheism.


I have just read this; rarely have I come across such a cogent and well-articulated synopsis of the imperative programming that is monotheism. Kudos.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2009 05:20 am
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http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HkPage.aspx?PageID=3904
Quote:

INDIANISE THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH

MINORITY RIGHT IS GRANTED NOT FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE CULTURE OF THE MAJORITY COMMUNITY.



[Joseph Pulikunnel, Director, Indian Institute for Christian Studies]



The need for Indianisation of the church was mooted by RSS and late Cardinal Joseph Parekattil Archbishop of Ernakulam diocese supported the move. He wrote on 15 the August 1986 that it is imperative to launch a movement of indigenisation of the Churches. “When a non-Christian embraces Christianity, following the dictates of his conscience, he should not be penalised for that, by uprooting him from his social and cultural traditions. What affinity, relationship or indebtedness has he to the foreign culture? From an apostolic point of view, the thought patterns, language terminology, symbols, gestures, postures etc. of our liturgy should be intelligible to the non-Christian population as well. This process of Indianisation is a basic right of ours and not a concession made by anybody, and no one should misinterpret it as bait to attract more flies.” (Syro-Malabar Liturgy as I see it, Appendix, page 118).



Indian Institute of Christian Studies (I I C S) an organ of catholic Reformation Literature Society was established in 1994 by Sri. Joseph Pulikunnel to reform the church on Biblical concepts.



About the need for such an Institute, He says “The church is at present western in organisation and administration and also, completely clergy centered. Indian churches have a great tradition of spirituality and ecclesial organisation. The Institute is exposing through its study and publications, the umbilical and unchristian character of the Indian church. It is to say the least sometimes ante Christ. The study of Bible and theology was once the exclusive portfolio of the clerics. ‘Brahmanical’ hierarchy in Hindu society has disintegrated. But the same Brahmanism has been in ascendancy in the Christian society.” When the I I C S was started the clergy tried in the beginning is isolate Sri. Joseph Pulikunnel from society. But thinking Laymen gave active co-operation. The intellectuals in the Episcopal churches have come out in open to protest against the monarchial pristocracy that exist in the church.



The main purpose of the institute is to give to the Christians the high ideals of Christ. The Christians are intellectually awake on this issue. But the other communities in India have not opened their eyes on the going on in the church Sri. Pulikunnel suggests to the leaders of the Hindu community to start a dialogue on National rather than with the Bishops and priests of the church.



The I I C S is situated in a sprawling 10 acres of Land at Hosanna Mount,Bharananganam, 80 Kms east of Kochi. Apart from I I C S, which has a library of nearly 10,000 books, a herbal clinic and herbal garden brings fresh air and blessings of nature to the picturesque surroundings. After graduating from Presidency College, Madras Joseph Pilikkunnel taught at the St. Joseph’s College, Devagiri, Calicut during 1958 to 1967. A monthly Journal titled ‘Hosanna’ was started by him in 1975 to educate Christens, about the real character and role of Indian church. He has authored ‘Identify of Nazarani Church of Kerala a book in English and several other books in Malayalam. He spoke at length to Haindavakeralam special correspondent Pradeep Krishnan on different aspects of Christianity in India: Excerpts.



1. When RSS chief Sudarshaji made a call for the need for Indianisation of the Church, many Church leaders condemned him. What are your views in the matter?



The first question to be answered is “ who are the so-called Church leaders? ” The media as well as the political parties treat the ecclesiastical authorities like Bishops as leaders of the Church. The bishops and the priests also would like to parade themselves in public as church leaders. But Bishops and priests are not leaders of the Christian community. They are only the spiritual mentors and not community leaders. A leader is one who is elected by a community. The bishops and priests are not elected by the faithful nor are they answerable to them. The Pope of Rome who is the spiritual head of the Catholic appoints the bishops of the Catholic Church.



The general public in India as well as the political parties do not know how the Catholic Church functions. Pope of Rome, as successor of Peter, the Apostle, is only the spiritual head of the Catholic faithful. A Catholic is bound to obey the Ex-Catholic-pronouncements of Pope on faith and morals. Christ had no material possessions and was never a temporal leader. Lord Jesus categorically stated “My Kingdom is not of this world.”


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2009 05:51 am
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http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/European_History/Contents

For reference


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2009 10:12 pm
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Hindu-Buddhist Conflict in the Chachnama: Fact or Fiction ?

http://www.svabhinava.org/HinduCiviliza ... -frame.php


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2009 10:37 pm
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Talking about monotheism, there exists lot of information on the Internet that claim Hinduism is also monotheistic. For example here is one such link: http://seva.sulekha.com/blog/post/2008/ ... nduism.htm

There are several folks claiming that Sanatana Dharma essentially is monotheistic.

Dhu or Brhaspati: Can you simply and explain? Did the Colonial powers distort our version to fit into their scheme?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2009 11:06 pm
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Quote:
Hindu-Buddhist Conflict in the Chachnama: Fact or Fiction ?

http://www.svabhinava.org/HinduCiviliza ... -frame.php


Yes, what the article says is very reasonable. The Chachnama itself is pretty ambiguous about this, and we find collaborators from both "Brahmnins" and non-Brahmins. Even "Jats" have been accused, but if you read Chachnama, you can see that initially they resisted the Arabs. One thing is clear, it was always the propertied classses and ruling elite from which collaborators came in maximum numbers.

As far as direct conflict is concerned, only in the beginning of the narrative, there is a potential conflict between the "usurping" Brahmin "Chach" and a "samani" (Sraman?) monk (Bud Ruk- Buddha Rakshita?) who was in close connection with the previous king. But even this conflict did not take place.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2009 11:53 pm
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Quote:
There are several folks claiming that Sanatana Dharma essentially is monotheistic.
Dhu or Brhaspati: Can you simply and explain? Did the Colonial powers distort our version to fit into their scheme?

This is a big subject, and I am not qualified enough - :)

Most of the Upanishads do build on "oneness". This is definitely a theme that runs through in many forms- with the known culmination being in Adi Shankara's Advaita. This current of thought could also be related to the more abstract (and what has been interpreted by some to be atheistic) Sankhyo of Kapil and what has survived of Buddha's teachings on the Mahadhamma - the universal law that guides all processes.

However, this "oneness" is fundamentally different from the monotheism of the revealed traditions. In monotheism of the revelations, the mono is detached/separate and distinct from humans. Further such an entity is supreme, suprahuman, beyond human questioning, and in spite of being formless, behaves very much like human authoritarian figures or a "benevolent despot". This peculiar over-humanization of an entity claimed to be beyond humanity is a distinctive feature missing in "oneness" concepts of the Indic school. In trying to move away from creature/human form idols and concrete forms, the revelations end up in more intense and characteristic human attributes in a supreme authority completely detached and distinct from humanity. In the Indic strands, humanity is part and manifestation of one single entity - composes and is in turn composed of this entity.

Thus we could summarize the primary difference as complete disjunction and separation of the "one" from humanity but the "one" behaving more human in the revelations, and immersion of humanity in the "one" and humanity as particular manifestation of the "one" in the Indic traditions.

The colonial historians/interpreters did distort, but not necessarily deliberately - (1) they could have failed to understand the distinction in terms of their understanding of monotheism (2) they need not have absorbed the language (Sanskrit) for a sufficient length of time "in-situ" (while in the culture) to grasp the sense of an expression as transparent to a native user.

The colonial agenda however could be working in the sense of differentiating the revealed traditions from the faiths of "subject races", and showing the former as better and preferable. So it is possible, that in colonial hands, only the so-called polytheistic representations found exposure and dissemination.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2009 11:56 pm
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SwamyG wrote:
Talking about monotheism, there exists lot of information on the Internet that claim Hinduism is also monotheistic. For example here is one such link: http://seva.sulekha.com/blog/post/2008/ ... nduism.htm

There are several folks claiming that Sanatana Dharma essentially is monotheistic.

Dhu or Brhaspati: Can you simply and explain? Did the Colonial powers distort our version to fit into their scheme?


Munna said in the Guru Gobindji's thread....

munna wrote:
Now here I feel that people are going on the wrong track.
First of all we need to understand that a devata is not equal to god in any which way. Devata is a sub god entity in Hindu pantheon. In fact Devata merely means an abode of a particular virtue. We Hindus and other Indic people often confuse the polymorphism (one god many forms) to polytheism (several gods). Just because Gora scholars were unable to find a suitable translation for the word Devatas and chose to call it as synonym of God does not means that we confuse ourselves and fall for this fractal recursivity.
We have crores of Devi Devatas (i.e embodiments of virtues) and not crores of Gods as many illiterate social scientists try to teach us. The message of Guruji was the same that is to cut to chase and stop believing what others told us about our religion and finding the truth within.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2009 12:19 am
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Quote:
There are several folks claiming that Sanatana Dharma essentially is monotheistic.

Dhu or Brhaspati: Can you simply and explain?


Following may be a long read but helpful. There is no greater sin than "All Religions are same".

4.3. Prophetic monotheism and Sanatana Dharma

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/pp/ch4.htm

Sanãtana Dharma Versus Prophetic Creeds

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/hindusoc/ch2.htm


Hindu Spirituality Versus Monotheism
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/hindusoc/ch4.htm


Dethroning Monotheism
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/hhce/Ch18.htm

Sanatana Dharma: Anusmriti and Anudhyâyana
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ohrr/ch01.htm


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2009 05:34 pm
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Thanks tsriram!

Geography of Kalidasa's Meghadhootam

tsriram wrote:
Ramana,
I have added numbers to the places mentioned in the map and uploaded it here - Image

sorry if it looks slightly cramped but i guess it works for now. My sanskrit is very rusty so need help with the title.

Items listed -
1. Gandhar
2. Sindhu
3. Chandrabhaga
4. Kaikeya
5. Shathadhru
6. Saraswathi(!!)
7. Yamuna
8. Kitrar (? – Not clear)
9. Kou(s)charandra
10. Haridwar
11. Kanakhal(?)
12. Kailash
13. Trivishtam
14. Nishad Parvath (What is its current name? Its somewhere in Tibet looks like)
15. Alankapuri Parvath
16. Manasarovar (lake)
17. Brahmaputra
18. Himalay
19. Kiraath
20. Kosal
21. Gang(a)
22. Vang(a)
(messed up the numbering here. No 23 in the numbers that I added :oops: )
24. Ang(a)
25. Rth (?)
26. Soong
27. Haihay
28. Kaling
29. V(a)
30. Mahodhadhi
31. Aagrakoot
32. Dasharndesh (?)
33. Godavari
34. Aa
35. Aravalli
36. Vanas
37. Dashpuram
38. Sipro (?)
39. Keeshikee (?)
40. Parvathi
41. Mahi
42. Narmada
43. Taapthi
44. Vindhyapadh
45. Singh
46. Ghasaan
47. Ujjaini
48. Vethravathi
49. Vidhisha
50. Devagiri
51. Kayne or Cane (as in cane sugar)
52. Ramagiri
53. Rashtrakoot
54. Yee (?)
55. Godavari (again! Messed up the numbering again! Sorry)
56. Krishna
57. Madhra
58. Dakshinodadhi
59. Kaveri
60. Pandya
61. Tamrabharani (!)
62. Dakshninodadhi
63. Lanka

There are many places listed in the two lists on either side in the lower half of the map. Will translate them later.

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