Tuesday, August 18, 2009

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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2008 12:39 pm
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Raju wrote:
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It's imparting historical-religious education with the ultimate aim of breeding atheists, disbelievers and cynics.


No, it is the overall braindead behaviour and the monstrous stupidity exhibited by the believers and the religious crowd that turns off people who have built their own rational moral/ethical framework. The last thing religious people should do is come up with conspiracy theories that the west is creating atheists and cynics via history 101.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2008 10:32 pm
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Rye wrote:
The last thing religious people should do is come up with conspiracy theories that the west is creating atheists and cynics via history 101.


Seeing a trend has nothing to do with being religious or not. American history is too short to worry about religion since it has never really played a part in the history the way it has in other countries. History does not breed cynics and atheists, but the literature that people read certainly does. Most of the higher literature I read in high school, discounting Shakespeare, was existentialist - Nietzsche, Kafka, Camus, etc. and while it doesn't have anything on Eastern religions, it does break holes in Abrahamic philosophies.

Mind you, this is only from my experience.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2008 10:08 pm
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
this does not have a direct relation with the thread title, but I couldn't find a better thread for it.
can anyone help me out with info on how and with what materials ancient India's roads were made ? googling doesn't help much. IVC cities did have paved roads (brick or stone ?) but I'm more interested in the highways.
thanks.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 11 Jul 2008 08:56 am
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Not sure if there is a better thread to post this in. Mods, please move to appropriate location if not.

Constitution 1,000 years ago

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2008/07/11/stories/2008071151250300.htm

Quote:
“It is a veritable written Constitution of the village assembly that functioned 1,000 years ago,” Dr. Nagaswamy says in his book, “Uthiramerur, the Historic Village in Tamil Nadu.” The book, in both Tamil and English, has been published by the Tamil Arts Academy, Chennai.



Quote:
Dr. Nagaswamy says: “It [the inscription] gives astonishing details about the constitution of wards, the qualification of candidates standing for elections, the disqualification norms, the mode of election, the constitution of committees with elected members, the functions of [those] committees, the power to remove the wrong-doer, etc…”


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2008 10:44 am
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PAGES FROM HISTORY: THE RUIN THAT BRITAIN WROUGHT

By Prof. A.V. Narasimha Murthy, former Head, Department of Ancient History & Archaeology,University of Mysore.

The ruin that Britain wrought' is the title of a book authored by Kulapati K.M. Munshi, the founder of the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan and a great visionary of pre-and post-independent India. He was a multifaceted scholar and has written on varied aspects spanning from mythology to agriculture, history to architecture and fiction to facets of administration. Thus he is the author of over one hundred books in English, Hindi and Gujarati.

Eye-opener

The present book is an eye-opener to the entire world and has explained how the British destroyed India during the colonial days in every walk of life, be it economics or education, commerce or navigation. The entire book is supported by reports mostly by the British themselves and throws open tables after tables showing authentic dates. Thus this is a well-documented study of an era in which the British were our masters.

Writing in 1946, he asserts 'Today after a century and half of British rule, we are poor, underfed, illiterate, backward in all respects where government help was necessary, thwarted in all matters where no such help was needed. This is neither mere logic nor rhetoric; it is the testimony of the facts mostly found by the Britishers.'

Cottage industries in pre-British days

During the pre-British days, India was a highly advanced land of cottage industries. Delhi produced cotton cloth; Lahore was famous for muslin, carpets, woolen goods, tents, boots; Agra was known for gold-laced fabric and embroidery; Srinagar had made a name for shawls, carpets and wooden ware; Ahmedabad was famous for gold and silver jewellery. All these were almost as large as London.

All these showed that Indians were not only rich but were practical in their commerical activities till the British entered India.

Golden period

The epoch between 1600 to 1800 was a golden period from the point of view of industry and trade. At this point of time, British transferred 1000 million pounds from India to Britain. Perhaps ever since the world began, nobody could plunder this much of money. Suddenly every English home began to show signs of affluence and with the help of this loot from India, Britain vanquished Napolean and built her supremacy in the world.

Fabric buisness

The fabric business of South India and Bengal was such that Britain could not compete with it. Hence they passed a law. It prohibited the wear of Indian cloth under a penalty of five Pounds on the wearer and 20 Pounds on the seller. Thus Manchester came to be built on the grave of Indian Commerce. Consequently, India could not expect cotton goods but had to import from England 214 million yards of cloth. Thus Indian cotton indu-srtry was murdered.

Shipping industry

Indian shipping had made a name from the early days. They were capable of building ships larger that were capable of containing 2000 butts. Some ships were built in compartments so that if one part got damaged, the other part could continue the voyage without any difficulty. Naturally, Engalnd borrowed plans and designs from India. Indian ships could carry a load of 1500 tons whereas English ships could carry just 300-400 tons.

Further, the ships built in Bombay were one fourth cheaper than the ones built in the docks of England. Hence there was no market for English ships. Hence British passed a law in 1814 that no ship could enter London if it did not have three fourths British crew. This killed the Indian shipping industry.

India has moved from plenty to unparellelled poverty forced on her by the British. During the first world war, India supplied goods and services to Britain and acquired 4000 crore. But Britain did not give this amount to India. India had to purchase 2000 crore tolas of gold from Britain at the rate of Rs. 75/- per tola whereas the actual price was just Rs. 42 per tola.

Enslavement

Britain fought imperialist wars at the expense of India. Indians shed their blood and paid for their own enslavement. The army expenditure in India was mainly intended to help Britain to retain her empire. India was dragged to the wars without the consent of the Indians and was made to supply men and materials under compulsion. Had Britian spent half this money on welfare activities, half of Indian population could have lived in contentment.

Poverty & Famine

Within fifty years of the revolt of 1857, Indians were forced to live on less than half of their previous earnings. The British officers themselves submitted to the government that if this is continued, it will lead to great distress. But this advice fell on deaf ears of the British government. Famines visited India regularly during the period. But the British never bothered even though millions perished in Bengal famine. We were at least 150 years behind USA or UK in general development of our resources. The British came and stopped the clock of progress.

Corrupt officers

Most of the British administrators were corrupt and looting was their main desire. Impeachment of Clive, Warren Hastings and many others confirm the corruption of the British officers. Wealth of the Indian Maharajas was proverbial and the British eyes fell on that fabulous wealth.

On some pretext or the other, the British administrators coerced the Indian Maharajas and slowly robbed them of their wealth. Wives of the British officers were so greedy that they took away whatever they wanted from the Maharajas. There is no exaggeration that some of them wanted to transfer the marble monuments of India to their villas in Britain to decorate their bathrooms and drawing rooms.

Fortunately, there were some good British officers who loved India and her heritage and thanks to them the sinister design did not take place. Even the Queen was disgusted by all these anti-Indian measures and gave marching orders to East India Company. But enough damage had been done and even after 60 years of independence we are struggling to catch up.

http://www.starofmysore.com/main.asp?ty ... &item=3433


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2008 10:49 am
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An internationalconference to remove some of the myths and distortions from ancient Indian history is going to be held in Delhi in January.

International Conference on Indian History ICIH 2009
January 9-11, 2009, India International Centre, New Delhi

The International Conference on Indian History, to be held at the India International Centre on January 9-11, 2009 at New Delhi, will build upon the conclusions established in the seminar held at Dallas, Texas in 2007.

It has two objectives.

The first one is to increase awareness of strategic thinking in India and to show that a strategic approach based on long-term objectives is essential to ensure a safe and secure future for the ancient Indian civilization and lead it again to the kind of tremendous prosperity and global influence that it has enjoyed for thousands of years in the past.

The second objective is to increase awareness of the importance of learning the accurate history of India and its impact on the future choices that the country can make in its vital interests.

Background

To ensure the total domination of the Indian race politically and culturally, the British rulers of the Raj deliberately wrote a false history of India and completely mangled its chronology (sequence of ancient historical dates) to cause confusion and inferiority complex among Indians about their formidable and proud civilization that for 5,000 years exerted a tremendous influence on all ancient countries, from Greece to Rome to Egypt to China.

About six decades after we became independent, there is an urgent need for the Indians to correct the historical narrative of their civilization. But this needs to be done from an Indian perspective and by historians and scholars whose professionalism is beyond doubt and who are not corrupted by the alien ideology of Marxism or domestic political motives.

This has to be done on an urgent basis, because the Hindu Pundits – the custodians of our ancient history and traditions – may not be around in great numbers in the next couple of decades. They may abandon their punditry and migrate to more lucrative and well-paying modern jobs rather than do the arduous task of memorizing a sizeable portion of the Vedas, Puranas and Upanishads as they have done in the past. This will be a great tragedy because this sacred literature written by the ancient sages is the foundation on which the Indian civilization rests, whether today’s English-speaking Indians realize it or not.

Further, we need to investigate the consequences of the Indian youth learning false history of their country during their formative years, which results in self-alienation and hatred towards their own culture and civilization. We have to make an overall assessment of the terrible cultural damage caused to the Indian society by the false and fanciful history written by colonials and Marxist historians, because the ancient Indian history as it is taught today in India is terribly flawed and mischievous.

This undertaking is not possible till all of us Indians come together to develop and execute a plan to decolonize our history and rescue it from the clutches of the people who belonged neither to our country, nor to our race. No other country in the world allows its children to read their own history written by people of other races. Why should Indians continue to do so?

The Conference

The International Conference on Indian History ICIH 2009 is organized by the Indic Studies Foundation, a no-profit organization based in California, US, from private funds. The Foundation undertakes a series of seminars annually with an exclusive focus on Indic history, with a view to research its distortions, to investigate and assess the consequences of such distortions and try to remedy the situation by facilitating impartial and professional research into Indic history.

At ICIH 2009, about 100 reputed scholars and historians from all over the world will present papers in front of about 1,200 delegates over a period of three days at New Delhi’s India International Centre. The papers will broadly be related to the following themes:

1. The ancient history of democracy as a political system and India’s place in such history. (Democratic republics existed in India two to three thousand years ago.) The concept of the “Chakravarthi” as the upholder of Dharma (but not necessarily an absolute monarch).
2. Identifying key distinguishing features and dates of the Indic civilization of relevance to the current strategic environment facing India
3. Identifying those areas of Indian history which are egregiously in error and the resulting impact on the manner in which India is viewed in the world today
4. Identify examples of government policies based on an erroneous interpretation of Indian history
5. Historiography of Indian arts
6. Discuss the present-day nonchalance, unconcern and forgetfulness of Indian citizens toward their country’s history and measures that can be taken to rekindle their interest
7. Propose methodology and criteria to evaluate the accuracy of the current or future proposed narratives of Indian history
8. Facilitating the recognition and revival of traditional knowledge systems in today’s India
9. The history of a country affects the economic choices it makes. But how does the poverty or wealth of a country affect how its history is viewed in the present?
10. In the 17th century, as during most of its history for the two thousand years before that, the Indian GDP according to Angus Madison comprise a staggering 25 percent of the world’s total GDP on a purchasing power parity basis. In short, India was the most productive and richest country in the world for most of the world’s history. So what were the consequences of the rapid deterioration of India’s powerful economy that started immediately after the Battle of Plassey with which the British came to acquire the control of the vast province of Bengal (comprising today’s Bangladesh, West Bengal, Orissa and Bihar)? The British control led to the first of the Great Famines of Bengal in 1777, and the death by slow starvation of one-third of the total population of Bengal.
11. Discuss the impact of the new “politically correct” dogma unique to India which goes under the name of secularism. What is the effect of the Indian-brand secularism on the historiography of India and the discipline of Indian history, especially the caricaturization of anybody articulating Hindu interests as a “saffron fascist.”
12. Identity and politics interact not only in history writing but also in current affairs. How much of the identity politics today, including subaltern studies, is a consequence of the massive distortion and re-inventing of caste by the colonial overlord? Did India’s 1971 war with Pakistan and the Pokhran I explosion by Indira Gandhi’s government trigger a huge increase in funding of South Asian studies by Western governments? If yes, then for what purpose? How these South Asian studies being conducted abroad are affecting India’s image in the world and in the eyes of its own citizens?

There will be many other themes such as the follows:

1. Perceptions of “history”, with special reference to Indian history
2. History and the historian: Judging history versus pleading history
3. The colonial-missionary distortions in Indian history
4. Impact of post-modernism and post-structuralism on contemporary Indian historiography
5. Post-colonial distortions in Indian history
6. Impact of history writing on identity politics and geo-politics of today
7. Current status of the debate on Vedic-Harappan identity
8. Ongoing debates on Indian history text books in India and abroad
9. History of Indian Ocean Community
10. History of Indian diaspora
11. Women in ancient India
12. The extent to which the current history of India is an occidentalist revision
13. India’s contribution to technology and sciences in the past and the possible transfer of technology from India to Greece and later to Europe. What impact did this transfer have on the resurgence of Europe such as the Enlightenment and Renaissance? For instance, there is ample circumstantial evidence that the Gregorian calendar was fixed in 1582 after the Jesuits learned about sidereal measurements and accurate trigonometric tables from the Hindu astrologers of Kerala
14. The implications of the Saraswati Sindhu civilization on the posture of Pakistan and Indo-Pak relations
15. The various ways in which the Westerners have caricatured the Indic, such as by reinventing the caste system as the prime determinant of Indic civilization
16. Discuss the potential Indic origin of the realist imperative (eg. John Meerscheimer and Hans Morgenthau) of the Occidental in its formulation of foreign policy. The imperative has been a significant strand in the Indic strategic weltanschuung, (a conception of the vast universe and humanity’s relationship to it) ever since the time of Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad-Gita. The efficacy by which Lord Krishna plied his craft is attested to by the fact that he was equally trusted by both parties in the war. Is India adhering to such Realist impulses, or is it just being pragmatic, or is it being weak-kneed in its approach to the major powers such as US, China and Russia?
17. Encourage and report on independent studies of Meso-America by the Indics to assess whether the Westerners have applied a similar Euro-centric approach to the historical narrative of the Incas and the Aztecs.
18. The manner in which Indian literary and scientific historiography has been characterized by the Occident (Westerners) and the total ignorance of the works of such ancient Indian stalwarts as Bhartrihari (a towering philosopher and grammarian of ancient India) in the young generation of Indians today.
19. The Goan Inquisition and its impact on the Indian society, especially in the Konkan area


International Conference on Indian History ICIH 2009
January 9-11, 2009

At

India International Centre
40, Max Mueller Marg, Lodi Estate
New Delhi

From January 9th (Friday) to 11th (Sunday), 2009

Indic Studies Foundation
948, Happy Valley Road
Pleasanton, CA 94566
USA
Email: kosla DOT vepa AT indicstudies DOT us


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2008 06:11 pm
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Sanjay, Please do try to attend the conf and give it wide publicity to make it well attended. Its our own kaushal who is organizing it.
Some of our stalwarts might be there too!


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2008 06:22 pm
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Sanjay, Please do try to attend the conf and give it wide publicity to make it well attended. Its our own kaushal who is organizing it.
Some of our stalwarts might be there too!


Ramana, I am helping Kaushal organise it. Just met him last week in Delhi. I have taken a lot of reponsibility for a lot of work for the conference, from organising media contacts to writing press releases to booking hotel rooms!!


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2008 06:25 pm
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
keep up the good work boss ! and please keep us posted.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2008 06:25 pm
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Thanks a lot. I didnt know.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2008 08:14 pm
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
not distorted history per se:

I'm pleasantly surprised by the fact that the wiki page on bagha jatin is quite accurate and detailed. It even contains a few details which I didn't know of before regarding czech efforts to torpedo his chances. if successful (it could well have been), we could have seen an independent India during WW1 with an excellent leader at one of the top positions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagha_Jatin

some interesting snippets about this very interesting man who should have been much more well known than he is :
Quote:
Upon returning to his native village Koya in March 1906, Jatin learned about the disturbing presence of a leopard in the vicinity; while reconnoitring in the nearby jungle, he came across a Royal Bengal tiger and fought hand-to-hand with it. Mortally wounded, he managed to plunge a Darjeeling dagger in the tiger's neck, killing it instantly. The famous surgeon of Calcutta, Lt-Colonel Suresh Sarbadhikari, "took upon himself the responsibility for curing the fatally wounded patient whose whole body had been poisoned by the tiger’s nails."
Quote:
In 1903, on meeting Sri Aurobindo at Yogendra Vidyabhushan's place, Jatin decides to collaborate with him and is said to have added to his programme the clause of winning over the Indian soldiers of the British regiments in favour of an insurrection
Quote:
In 1905, during a procession to celebrate the visit of the Prince of Wales at Calcutta, Jatin decides to draw the attention of the future Emperor on the behaviour of HM’s English officers. Not far from the royal coach, he singles out a cabriolet on a side-lane, with a group of English military men sitting on its roof, their booted legs dangling against the windows, seriously disturbing the livid faces of a few native ladies. Stopping beside the cab, Jatin asks the fellows to leave the ladies alone. In response to their cheeky provocation, Jatin rushes up to the roof and fells them with pure Bengali slaps till they drop on the ground. [12] The show is not innocent. Jatin is well aware that John Morley, the Secretary of State, receives regularly complaints about the English attitude towards Indian citizens, "The use of rough language and pretty free use of whips and sticks, and brutalities of that sort…"[13] He will be further intimated that the Prince of Wales, "on his return from the Indian tour had a long conversation with Morley [10/5/1906] (...) He spoke of the ungracious bearing of Europeans to Indians."
Quote:
In 1908 Jatin is not one of over thirty revolutionaries accused in the Alipore bomb case following the incident at Muzaffarpur. Hence, during the Alipore trial, Jatin takes over the leadership of the secret society to be known as the Jugantar Party, and revitalises the links between the central organisation in Calcutta and its several branches spread all over Bengal, Bihar, Orissa and several places in U.P..[20] Through Justice Sarada Charan Mitra, Jatin leases from Sir Daniel Hamilton lands in the Sundarbans to shelter revolutionaries not yet arrested. They are engaged in night schools for adults, homeopathic dispensaries, workshops to encourage small scale cottage industries, experiments in agriculture. Since 1906, with the help of Sir Daniel, Jatin sends meritorious students abroad for higher studies as well as for learning military craft.
Quote:
The major charge against Jatin Mukherjee and his party during the trial (1910–1911) is "conspiracy to wage war against the King-Emperor" and "tampering with the loyalty of the Indian soldiers" (mainly with the 10th Jats Regiment) posted in Fort William, and soldiers in Upper Indian Cantonments.
Quote:
During the German Crown Prince's visit to Calcutta, Jatin meets him and receives a promise about arms supply.

Quote:
Ross Hedviček claims that had E.V. Voska not interfered in this history, today nobody would have heard about Mahatma Gandhi and the father of the Indian nation would have been Bagha Jatin.
Quote:
Inspired by Swami Vivekananda, Jatin expressed his ideals in simple words: "Amra morbo, jat jagbe" (we will die, the country will wake)
Quote:
It is corroborated in the tribute paid to Jatin by Charles Tegart, the Intelligence Chief and Police Commissioner of Bengal : "Though I had to do my duty, I have a great admiration for him. He died in an open fight."[46] Later in life, Tegart admitted : "Their driving power (...) immense: if the army could be raised or the arms could reach an Indian port, the British would lose the War"

another person whom history has overlooked is Sister Nivedita, Vivekananda's disciple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Nivedita

a polymath if there ever was one, during her brief existence she left an incredible amount of articles, essays and opinion pieces touching virtually every part of Hindu life.

her indirect but immense contribution to Indian science with the help she provided to JC Bose is also virtually unknown. she was also a very important figure in fostering and supporting bengal's revolutionaries, including aurobindo ghosh.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2008 11:52 pm
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continuing from FHL thread, in reply to atish's post.

to put it in a nutshell jagat seth was the name given to the bankers of the nawab of bengal(then siraj), in this case a scion of a family of marwari traders and bankers.
this person funded the conspiracy hatched by clive and mir jaffar, siraj's general in return for a promise of business concessions and favours .
at the battle of palashi (plassey) mir jafar defected and is thereafter considered synonymous with a traitor and the brits came in control of bengal.

let me add that I'm in no way supportive of the freaks who are hung up with bengali superiority while their state goes down the drain. I believe I've already explained the evolution of this stupid psychology in the context of bengal and that your argument agrees with mine on the similarity of MNS behaviour.
regards.

added later: by dishonest businessmen, I mean those who go beyond the legal limit of 'gaming the system' which is what you are referring to.
although with the lack of exposure to business practices, even that was looked at suspiciously.
two particular types of dishonesty that unfortunately saw involvement of marwari businessmen were adulteration of food (including incidences of adulteration of baby foods, which was obviously a very sensitive issue for the general public) and black marketing during the food crises of the middle decades of the century.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2008 12:38 am
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Rahul M,

I agree with what you are saying. I am just not sure of the historical authenticity of this version of events. Can we be sure thre was bankrolling? If a general asks a banker, does he really have a choice? And is it really a crime to do it against an Arab invader anyways. And then who bankrolled Ranjit Singh, the Poddars, any credit ever give for that? Again I wonder if that chap really had a choice either. I heard this Jagat Seth thing from a Berkeley commie, later worked for IBM, but this is akin to blaming Jews for Communinsm, coz Marx was Jewish.

As for black marketeering and adulteration, its very possible. But again, data backups would be nice. Reason I say this is that these accusations are everywhere around the world, exactly the same for merchant communities in Indochina, Europe, Africa and the US. Think of the attitude of Africans towards Indians and you will get my drift.Most of the time they are baseless theories.

Part of the problem in India is research and data on these issues is largely absent.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2008 01:15 am
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Atish, I'm certainly not whitewashing the whole community with the comments. forget data or research on these topics, I for one, would certainly not support any study that seeks to find out if a particular community is more responsible than others for any wrong doing. The whole idea is reprehensible. I came to know of these things from various commentaries on those periods.
fact of the matter is around 80-90% of bengal's mid level businessmen were marus in the time after independence. it is not difficult to envisage a small % of them resorting to short-cuts in a time of crises and generally low level of enforcement. consider this as a seed that used the already prevalent sour-grapes environment to grow. I agree with you on the parallels to the other mercantile communities.

regarding jagat seth, Atish, trust me, I don't say things I am not sure of and it takes much to convince me.
that jagat seth was involved is beyond doubt. but so were hindu kings like krishna chandra roy .
the situation was not like what you describe. Siraj had without doubt the strongest military force in bengal at that time and without this conspiracy and mir jaffar's switch, he would have crushed the brits. he had in fact conquered fort william the year earlier. clive couldn't have got jagat seth to help him unless he himself wanted to. he was siraj's banker remember ? :wink:
siraj however was a pretty hated figure and people had little qualm in trying to remove him.
as for the arab invader thing, the replacement was mir jaffar himself, so that argument doesn't stand !
Quote:
Can we be sure thre was bankrolling? If a general asks a banker, does he really have a choice? And is it really a crime to do it against an Arab invader anyways. And then who bankrolled Ranjit Singh, the Poddars, any credit ever give for that? Again I wonder if that chap really had a choice either. I heard this Jagat Seth thing from a Berkeley commie, later worked for IBM, but this is akin to blaming Jews for Communinsm, coz Marx was Jewish.

sheesh ! I'm not defending this blaming of the marus !
I doubt if he or his co-conspirators had any idea this was going to lead to british occupation of India. and even so, the responsibility for the act lies on him and him alone, not on his community, nor on his progenies.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2008 01:37 am
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Rahul M,

Trust me I am not accusing you of anything I agree with you 100%. Any community that professes to be one has to be answerable for its actions, and I trust that Jagat Seth thing. My point about that Arab thing is that the foreigner/oppressor/colonial demarcation was not as clear cut then as now perhaps. Perhaps just a change of ********.

I would actually support research, either it would shatter myths, or force a community to reform itself. But with bad enforcement, the data would be nonexistent. I am not knowledgeable about the matter, but terrible behavior by a section (or even a large section) of Maru traders is very possible.

Atish.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2008 01:46 am
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The name was Raja Nanda Kumar. He saw an opportunity to rid Bengal of the nawabi rule for recall that Siraj-ud-dowlah was the grandson of Alivardi Khan, a Mughal governor of Aurangzeb, who declared rulership after Aurangzeb's death. Nanda Kumar enabled the British to seize power and supplant Mughal rule and ended Muslim rule in Bengal. He was latter double crossed by Clive and Hastings and there was legal case against the latter. Nanda Kumar helped undo the work of Bakhtiyaruddin Khilji and the last Pala king who submitted ot the Afghans.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2008 03:56 pm
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Its crucial to remember the INA for its demise and non recognition of its role has imapcts even now and maybe for a long time.

Telegraph, Kolkota, 26 Sept 2008

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A SPECIAL FORCE
- Patriots from another land


Women against the Raj: The Rani of Jhansi Regiment By Joyce Chapman Lebra, Institute of Southeast Asian Studies, Price not mentioned

Buried in the historical, sociological and political information of Joyce Lebra’s readable book is the fascinating tale of four obscure, but indomitable, women who might be called non-resident Indians. But unlike today’s NRIs, Meenachi Perumal, Ammaloo, Anjalai Ponnusamy and Muniammah Rengasamy, girls from Malaya’s rubber plantations, gave without seeking any return when they joined the Indian National Army as teenagers to fight for a motherland they had never seen.

The Netaji legend has been done to death but in spite of the many books, including Lakshmi Sahgal’s A Revolutionary Life: Memoirs of a Political Activist, not enough is known about the simpler girls who rallied to Subhas Chandra Bose in Malaya and Burma. If only result legitimizes work, these Ranis, as Rani of Jhansi Regiment soldiers were called, did not achieve much. But their determination “to die for India” (quoting Rasammah Bhupalan, another local recruit) continued the Indian tradition of female service and sacrifice that is Lebra’s underpinning theme. She says Bose’s choice of name for the regiment was a conscious attempt to exalt “the ideology of the Cosmic Mother, of India as Mother, Bharat Mata”. Citing revolutionaries like Kalpana Dutt and Bina Das, Lebra argues that “the ideological, literary, and religious incarnations of the Mother reached their most complex and distinctive expressions” in Bengal where they also inspired political activity.

Not that she depicts Bose as an obsessive Bengali. On the contrary, when a woman recruit replied in Bengali to his question in English, Bose retorted angrily, “I don’t understand you. What makes you think you’re so special or I’m so special because we are Bengalis?… Remember this: I’m Indian first, I’m Indian second, I’m Indian third, I’m Indian every time. I’m always just Indian.” Rasammah, who told Lebra the story, “has refused to live in India after partition. ‘This is not the India we fought for,’ she says.”

Such vignettes make Lebra’s slim volume special, and it’s a pity there aren’t more. In fact, the first five chapters, 59 out of 108 pages (excluding an epilogue in which P. Ramasamy, an Indian Malaysian academic, argues that the INA encouraged post-war anti-British political activity) racily summarize history without any surprises for readers in India. Moreover, they are marred by printer’s devils and errors of fact. Far from being killed like the English in Kanpur in 1857, inmates of the Lucknow Residency were famously rescued in what became a stirring legend of British Indian history. Sri Aurobindo did not become “prominent” as “founder of Auroville”. Auroville was inaugurated 18 years after his death. Sri Aurobindo’s philosophical writings brought him renown.

Though she taught Indian history at Colorado University, India in general is definitely not Lebra’s forte. Where she scores is in tracking down the four surviving Ranis who greeted her with “Jai Hind!” and the INA’s raised-fist salute, saying they were ready to fight again. Muniammah, a tapper’s daughter who attended a Tamil estate school for five years, was only 13 when she insisted on enlisting. “The only thing on our minds was freeing India from the British. We were willing to give our lives to the cause.” A photograph by the author shows the aged, but cheerful, Muniammah saluting in her wartime cap.

Interviewing them in their homes through an interpreter must have been an arduous task for Lebra, who is of almost the same vintage. But she was already familiar with the subject, having written about Rani Lakshmibai’s exploits and INA-Japan relations. Used to wartime “comfort women”, the Japanese did not take the Ranis seriously. But Aung San, Burma’s charismatic nationalist leader who was murdered after independence, was so impressed that he asked Bose to raise a similar regiment of Burmese women. These Ranis were young, of humble origins and unlettered but they enjoyed an advantage over British Indian soldiers who escaped the brutality of Japanese PoW camps by joining Bose. As Lebra says, “from the Japanese perspective, the INA was tainted from the start” because “surrender did not exist in Japanese military rhetoric or practice”. In contrast, the Ranis fought because, to cite Promita Pal, “the sacrifice of our lives will reduce the whole of the British empire to ashes”.

Even the suggestion that most Malayan recruits were “the lowest of the low” and joined up to escape “racial slurs” and “the silent contempt in which they were held by Chinese and Malays” cannot flaw Meenachi’s heroism in volunteering for the Jan Baz “suicide unit”. The end was an anti-climax for girls who happily rose at dawn for gruelling training, marched with a rifle, tramped the Burmese jungle and refused to salute Japan’s flag because the Japanese did not salute India’s. As Muniammah lamented, “Our turn to fight never came; we had to retreat in 1944 by train.” One Rani tried to commit suicide rather than go back. Others signed a petition in their own blood begging to be sent into combat. It was not that they saw no action. Their camp was bombed right at the start, and Josephine and Stella were killed when their retreating train was attacked.

Bose saw his girl soldiers as symbolic of Lakshmibai. Just as the INA created a model of equality and harmony, the discipline and organization of the Ranis set an example of female empowerment. Or would if India had taken greater notice of humble Indian Malayan women who fought for a distant and virtually unknown motherland. Meenachi, Ammaloo, Anjalai and Muniammah may not be the only survivors. If India will not, the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies, which sponsored Lebra, should commission a Tamil-speaking researcher to track down other forgotten INA survivors in the region for a more focussed chronicle of diasporic patriotism.

SUNANDA K. DATTA-RAY


Integrating women soldiers into the Indian armed forces was delayed by fifty years with a lot of fuddy/duddy arguements from koi hai saabs..

We can have a BR page for these forgotten heroines.

Also it might stiffen the IA's fighting spirit if they had a unit on the INA in their course work on how nationalistic ideas shape and form Armed forces. It wasnt all pacifist struggle for the Independence.

It also killed the nationalist spirit in Bengal.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2008 02:24 pm
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Rahul, as I wrote in the Fake liberal thread, Siraj was a Turk. Mir Jafar was an Arab. So anyway, if they were victors, there would not have been anything different for Hindus. This is how I see things. Most Bengalis will disagree with me on this. So ideology wise, it was removal of one foreign invader and replacement with another. Siraj is not a Hindu king anyway. I see Tipu Sultan also in the same light. The western coast of Southern Karnataka and northern Kerala have signs of his *magnanimity*.

Some years back, Pranabda spoke of Siraj's army to showcase Bengal's military power. He should have talked about Shashanka or Gopala instead.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2008 05:28 am
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X-posted...
ManuJ wrote:
If you look at current India with the perspective of the last 1000 years, you will be highly satisfied with where we are today and where we are headed.

I am currently re-reading a book on Indian history, and even though it's an exercise in refreshing my memory, it still makes my blood boil to read what India has suffered through in the last 1000 years. Any other nation would have long back buckled, disintegrated, lost its identity, converted...So for starters, be glad that India still stands strong as one nation with its customs, traditions and philosophies and its multi-cultural, multi-ethnic identity intact and thriving.

BTW, the much-touted statistic that India accounted for 20-25% of the world's GDP in 1700 hides the fact that it did so under Mughal occupation, in back-breaking (and I literally mean back-breaking) conditions for the farmers, laborers and artisans. All of the profits were swallowed by the occupiers, local nobility or the European traders, with Indians getting zilch. In fact, India's vast army of farmers and artisans was the primary attraction for Mughals and Europeans alike. The real treasure they were after was the common Indian man who lived a life not much better than that of a slave. That's not the kind of economic glory we want to go back to.

India in 1947 was basically a nation of farmers eking out a subsistence living. It had hostile neighbours eager to eat it up because of which it had to devote a large part of the revenues to defense. It was committed to not becoming a poodle of any major power, so did not qualify for generous aid packages. Still, it had to suffer the humiliations again and again of accepting foreign food aid because of recurring famines. Most people bet against it surviving as a democratic nation for too long. It had so many challenges that the mind boggles to think about them.

For a country as large and diverse as India, there was really no other choice than democracy. Even though it has its flaws, strong democratic institutions and customs have kept India united and helped everyone have a sense of entitlement and belonging. Democracy has also helped India tide over critical crisis like the Emergency and the Punjab insurgency. About true democracy at the grass roots level - it takes time for it to percolate down. We are just seeing democracy take roots at the state level, what with people demanding good governance and jobs through industrialization. The laggard states will soon fall in line, just as Bihar did.

Post-independence, India's progress has not been perfect. India got mired in socialistic ideas for too long and it took a crisis to shake things off. It could also have been served with better leaders, especially at local and state levels. But overall, considering the dire state of affairs, it has done pretty well. India is today positioned as a major economic and military power. It's one of the world's most respected democracies. Its private sector is thriving, even with restrictive labor laws. Infrastructure and industry is being built, one court-case at a time. After Tata Nano, I wonder if any political leader will be ready to perform hara-kiri as Mamta did and oppose industry. There is renewed investment in agriculture, and it's only a matter of time before companies like Reliance and Bharati introduce far-reaching efficiencies and profits in farming. The National Urban Renewal mission has started to yield results - I wager that the next 10-15 years will see a huge investment in urban infrastructure. The metros in major cities are just a start.

Most of the challenges before India are pretty obvious and so are the solutions. Among major reforms needed, it needs to reform its judicial system and its labor laws. There is scope for better targeted subsidies - I would love to see more govt. investment in health and education and basic infrastructure. Tax reforms are already well under-way and the results are very encouraging. None of the reforms, except reforming subsidies, seem far off the horizon. The labour unions are a minor percentage of total work-force, and it's a matter of time before their bluff is called.

The biggest challenge, imho, is internal security. Internal security apparatus and political attitudes both need to be overhauled. The rule of law needs to be enforced in all cases and everywhere. The justice system needs to act as a deterrent, not an incentive. Terrorism, whatever its form, needs to be decisively dealt with. It was heartening to see that at last IB is getting extra personnel and a new division. Good start but lot more needs to be done. If internal security issues can be dealt with, and I think they can be but need a strong PM, there is nothing stopping India.

Today, the world knows India for its techies and call centers, and not for its emaciated hungry people. Tomorrow, it will know India as a genuine world economic and military power and a keeper and restorer of peace and democracy throughout the world. India's population, becoming more educated and skilled every day, will again become its biggest treasure once again for which the Mughals and Britishers flocked to India. It's no surprise that MNCs have discovered that even unskilled laborers have the 'basic smarts' and can be trained very quickly to be productive.

Oh, and it was funny to read cities like Dubai and Singapore being compared with India. Dubai is doomed, as is the rest of the gulf. Over the next 50 years, their impressive buildings will crumble as suddenly as they have risen as these states lose their economic power and strategic significance, along with the hard-working expatriate population that have made them what they are today. And do we really want India to emulate the police-state of Singapore? Think not.

A common man in India walks with a strut because he knows he is free. This freedom is precious, and believe me, it makes up for a lot of shortcomings. It is worth preserving and sacrificing for, especially after hundreds of years of foreign rule. And worth preserving is the idea of India, all those things that India stands for. The rest is only a matter of time.

Sorry, had time to write today and got carried away...too long...


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 04:57 am
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ramana wrote:
Nanda Kumar enabled the British to seize power and supplant Mughal rule and ended Muslim rule in Bengal.


The British had a long conflict with the Mughals over disputes on customs duties and taxes from the rule of Aurangzeb. In 1686, while Aurangzeb was engrossed in his Deccan wars, the Company went to war in Bengal over the corruption of the local Mughal officials and a financial dispute with Indian merchants, sacking and burning the town of Hughli before being expelled by the Mughal army. Their army of 400 had Englishmen, Portuguese half-breeds, Rajput mercenaries (which means Purbias of UP-Bihar), and four ships. After a brief lull in 1688 they seized the town of Balasore, and committed great atrocities on "Christians and non-Christians, men and women alike". But the Mughals captured the merchants and civilians of the company, forcing the English to come to terms in 1690.

Later during the Shova Singh uprising (1698) permission was given to the European factories at Chandernagar (French), Chinsura (Dutch), and Calcutta (English) to fortify their settlements and enlist Indian soldiers (mostly Purbia infantry) for their protection.

Nawab Alivardi Khan forced the Europeans to pay his expenses during the conflict with the Marathas of Nagpur. Further details Marathas in Eastern India.

Rahul M wrote:
Siraj had without doubt the strongest military force in bengal at that time and without this conspiracy and mir jaffar's switch, he would have crushed the brits.


Very exaggerated. Siraj's grandfather Alivardi had a stronger army, which was weakened by the long conflict with the Marathas of Nagpur. Despite Mir Jafar's defection, which was similar to Mir Habib's defection to the Marathas, Siraj's larger army of cumbersome artillery, loose infantry, and a horde of heavy cavalry, was no match to the drilled infantry and effcient artillery under the British. Robert Clive had earlier shown his military skills in the Carnatic Wars against the French.

Atish wrote:
If a general asks a banker, does he really have a choice?


No he does not, if he wishes to stay or continue doing business in the kingdom/city under that general's control. In this particular case the seth would have seen that Robert Clive's army was superior, and would win in any contest with Siraj's rabble. Mir Jafar's defection did not have much of a military impact as a political one, since Clive was only looking for a figure from the aristocracy to replace Siraj as Nawab.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 05:24 am
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Quote:
Very exaggerated. Siraj's grandfather Alivardi had a stronger army, which was weakened by the long conflict with the Marathas of Nagpur. Despite Mir Jafar's defection, which was similar to Mir Habib's defection to the Marathas, Siraj's larger army of cumbersome artillery, loose infantry, and a horde of heavy cavalry, was no match to the drilled infantry and effcient artillery under the British. Robert Clive had earlier shown his military skills in the Carnatic Wars against the French.

given that siraj had captured kolkata the year earlier in 1756 from the british in an expeditionary campaign, it doesn't look like a too big exaggeration to me.

http://www.hillsdalesites.org/personal/ ... -Clive.htm

a look at the numbers for both sides clears up the issue :

clive:
1000 europeans and 2000 Indian sepoys.
8 cannons

siraj:
15000 cavalry and 35000 infantry (only 5000 participated in battle)
more than 40 cannons, some french ones manned by french soldiers.

the total was 3000 against 50000 in manpower and 8 against 40 in cannons.

whatever had been their discipline and however weakened siraj's force might have been, there was no way clive could have own without mirajaffar's withdrawal. 3000 against 50000 can win only in movies like 300, not in real life.

a second look at the figures in fact convinces me that "crush" was an understatement, decimated should have been more like it.
cheers !


added later:
Quote:
No he does not, if he wishes to stay or continue doing business in the kingdom/city under that general's control. In this particular case the seth would have seen that Robert Clive's army was superior, and would win in any contest with Siraj's rabble. Mir Jafar's defection did not have much of a military impact as a political one, since Clive was only looking for a figure from the aristocracy to replace Siraj as Nawab.

these assertions don't hold up to scrutiny. therefore assuming the jagat seth was somehow forced to cooperate due to clive is a bit far fetched.
but yes, one can argue that the pressure came from mir jaffar and not clive, in which case the jagat seth could clearly see that mir jaffar's star was on the ascendant and that it was prudent to support him.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 11:06 pm
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Rahul M wrote:
given that siraj had captured kolkata the year earlier in 1756 from the british in an expeditionary campaign, it doesn't look like a too big exaggeration to me.


It is a huge exaggeration; for the simple reason that the main British forces, inculding Robert Clive, were engaged in the Carnatic against the French, and Calcutta was not well defended. When the Madras Council sent him with a strong force to recover Calcutta, it was done without any fighting on 9th February 1757, the Nawab's forces having fled away.

And the worthless Siraj was so panic-stricken that he actually signed the Treaty of Alinagar with Clive, practically conceding all British demands! This happened before the Battle of Plassey was fought........so much for the Nawab's "military might".

Rahul M wrote:
the total was 3000 against 50000 in manpower and 8 against 40 in cannons. whatever had been their discipline and however weakened siraj's force might have been, there was no way clive could have own without mirajaffar's withdrawal. 3000 against 50000 can win only in movies like 300, not in real life. a second look at the figures in fact convinces me that "crush" was an understatement, decimated should have been more like it.


Numbers alone are not important.....how and where those numbers are employed in the battlefield makes the difference between victory and defeat. Let's look at some other battles fought in the same region and period:

In 1763 Nawab Mir Qasim of Bengal with a 15,000 strong army fought against Major John Adams commanding 1100 European and 4000 Indian sepoys. By your logic of numbers the British should have been "decimated" or at least repulsed, but it was the Nawab who was crushed and forced to flee from Bengal! Nobody defected in this conflict.

In 1764 Mir Qasim, the Nawab of Awadh, and Mughal Emperor Shah Alam, fought the Battle of Buxar against the British. Major Hector Munro commanded 900 European and 7000 Indian drilled infantry with 20 guns while the Mughals had over 50,000 men with 133 guns. The Mughals lost close to 6000 men killed, and left 130 pieces of cannon on the field, whilst the British had only 2 officers and 4 rank and file killed. Nobody defected in this conflict either.

The truth is that the military revolution of drilled infantry firing accurate volleys, was far more dangerous than a ten times larger rabble of infantry, not trained to fire in concert or on command. And the Mughal artillery was cumbersome and badly manned by untrained golandazes, while the European artillery had better marksmanship and handling of munitions.

No wonder the pre-eminent military historian, Jadunath Sarkar remarked, "So great was the prestige of British arms even in provinces untraversed by a single British soldier, that no Indian power would willingly provoke an encounter with them."


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008 04:43 pm
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Quote:
Numbers alone are not important.....how and where those numbers are employed in the battlefield makes the difference between victory and defeat. Let's look at some other battles fought in the same region and period:

In 1763 Nawab Mir Qasim of Bengal with a 15,000 strong army fought against Major John Adams commanding 1100 European and 4000 Indian sepoys. By your logic of numbers the British should have been "decimated" or at least repulsed, but it was the Nawab who was crushed and forced to flee from Bengal! Nobody defected in this conflict.

airavat ji, I surely don't disagree with your first comment.

well trained armies could and can take on numerically superior but less well-trained ones. no question about it. but numbers do play a part of their own. superior tactics don't make an army invincible against a contemporary force numerically many times its superior.
the tactics employed by british army musketeers of formation firing was very difficult to counter for less disciplined Indian forces.
the example you have quoted however does not necessarily destroy my earlier assertion.
this was 5100 against 15,000, ratio of ~ 1:3.
siraj against clive was 50000 against 3000 that's about 17 to 1 ! surely you can't call that bit of statistics irrelevant ?
at the end of the day clive fought 5000 with his 3000 men, much more manageable for the disciplined EI forces.
the point about french manning of siraj's cannons I've already mentioned.

Quote:
It is a huge exaggeration; for the simple reason that the main British forces, inculding Robert Clive, were engaged in the Carnatic against the French, and Calcutta was not well defended. When the Madras Council sent him with a strong force to recover Calcutta, it was done without any fighting on 9th February 1757, the Nawab's forces having fled away.

AFAIK the brits captured ft. william when siraj was away. on hearing the news he came back but without a considerable part of his army which was sent to confront ahmad shah abdali, in bihar IIRC. siraj was defeated in a surprise dawn attack. he certainly hadn't fled away. of course that says nothing about his competence as a general or the lack of it.(or says a lot actually :P )
then again, siraj was a characterless womaniser sissy and the real control of his army was in the hands of his generals.
Quote:
And the worthless Siraj was so panic-stricken that he actually signed the Treaty of Alinagar with Clive, practically conceding all British demands! This happened before the Battle of Plassey was fought........so much for the Nawab's "military might".

other than the adjective worthless, to which I fully agree, the rest is rhetorical IMHO.
I rest my case.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008 09:19 pm
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Book Review from Hindu....

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Reconstructing a cultural ecology

History possesses no fixed genre. More than questions of genre, it is the texture of the narrative that is revealing in historiography. Textures of Time recovers texts previously considered non-historical and establishes that history is not an alien import brought in by the British, says R. CHAMPAKALAKSHMI.


THIS book is about historiography. Authored by a rare combination of a historian, a social anthropologist and a literary scholar, it is refreshingly different, like their earlier work Symbols of Substance, in its enlivening way of turning the serious world of (south) Indian historiography into an enjoyable exercise of critical appraisal, through its choice of a less understood period of south Indian history, i.e., the post-Vijayanagara -Nayaka or the pre-Colonial period and its recovery, as history, a whole corpus of literary texts of the late medieval and early modern periods (16th to the18th Centuries), marginalised in the histories of this period as non-historical (folk tales). Its main aim of refuting the notion that historical consciousness did not exist in south India before the British conquest and that history is an alien import brought in by colonial rule, is achieved through a highly sophisticated approach and nuanced analysis, notwithstanding its conscious use of abstruse vocabulary, difficult to follow without some familiarity with the historical background. It covers a wide spectrum of historiographical traditions, Indian and non- Indian, to drive home the point that there is no single genre or mode for historiographical purpose and that history is written more often in the dominant literary genre of a particular community, varying with space and time. This understanding opens up an amazing richness of dynamic and internally differentiated range of perspectives. It is texture and not genre that is the central criterion for such analysis — texture, which one has to feel and listen to while reading a text i.e., listening for the logic and sensibility that have shaped an entire conceptual system. A cultural ecology needs to be reconstructed and a new way of reading introduced.

The lament that India produced no Thucydides, Herodotus or Tabari has long since been questioned and disproved by works on the Itihasa-Purana tradition of the early period and on the ethno-historical texts of pre-colonial south India. Factually oriented history and the aitihya (tradition) mode of narrating the past can and did co-exist. The authors are positioned directly opposite the post-modernist attempt to deny any distinction whatsoever between history and literature, i.e. all is discourse, internal to the language itself. They identify and define the modes of history writing in pre-colonial south India as expressed in a wide range of clearly differentiated texts on paper and palm leaf and not as lithic records (usually considered most authentic), which were meant not merely for recording or preserving but also for communication. This corpus belongs to the newly crystallising Karanam culture, of a service gentry represented by the village record keeper and accountant (amil or qanungo, munshi, kulkarni), graphically literate communities.

The battle of Bobbili (1757) between two Velama ruling houses of Bobbili and Vijayanagaram in the 'manne' or forest region forms the theme of three works representing a complete historiographical sequence with three different understandings of the events in Bobbili, although they converge on crucial matters of detail with great accuracy. The theme of an early oral epic is reworked in three different texts, using alternative modes of historiography, while narrating the heroic fight between two local chiefs (polegars) of the northern shatter zone of Andhra, in the periphery of trans-regional state structures like the Nizamat state of Hyderabad and the Mughal. Into this narrative are built the complex relations among the chiefs, their European allies, the French and the English, as also the Marathas, suggesting an ambiguous political map, in which the expansion of the Mughal and of the Nizamat states depended upon local chiefs and their incorporation as revenue farmers. It is precisely in these peripheral shatter zones that the bardic epic is the predominant mode of expressing the historical processes of change, and inspire repeated reworkings of the event in different ways, from one genre to another as it moves from one social milieu to another. The authors offer a synoptic comparison on linguistic textures and the notions of historical causality and the relative importance of individual actors. Mallesam's Bobbili Yuddha Katha is the most economical, straightforward narrative, the Ranga Raya Caritramu of Dittakavi Narayana Kavi, a drama of character, diplomacy, rational strategy and diplomacy, while the Pedda Bobbili Raju Katha uses highly emotive structures in kavya style. All three are cast in the heroic epic mould, a feature present even in the 18th-century French and English accounts of the battle. The Padmanabha Yuddhamu of early 19th Century, a counter history to the Bobbili battle, glorifies the past history of the Velama warriors from the Kakatiya times, their valour and bravery. This work, however, marks the end of an epoch and conveys a sense of despair as their world is changing with the coming of new actors and new institutions in the political arena, culminating in the complete breakdown of the late medieval moral order, with the coming of the British and the revenue settlement of Munro, a process that began decades earlier when an irreversible fission among the native ruling families set in, as described in the Dupati Kaifiyatu.

A similar historiography exists for the story of Desingu Raja (Tej Singh, a Bundela Rajput) of Senji, first in a French letter, then the Marathi Jayasingha Raja kaiphiyata of the Mackenzie collection, the Desingu Raja Katai in Tamil, the Arcot Puranams, where the story of Teivika Rajan is told in a long narrative of regional history or local purana. A simple story of bravery and tragic death in a battle against the Arcot Nawab, moved the imagination and inspired multiple retellings, marking a cultural continuity, recycling vital images and themes in an oral milieu. Arcot and Senji are also in the unsettled periphery of state systems (warrior king of the pastoral and hunting zone) with Left Hand, mobile non-ascriptive warriors at heart. Here the Brahmins are less visible, while the Rajput and Muslim are twined in friendship and the Hindu gods accept a dead Muslim hero into their heaven. A Persian dynastic history the Sa'id nama on Sa'adatullah Khan of Arcot, Desingu's enemy, written by a Brahmin from Ghazni, Jaswant Rai, well versed in Persian, gives the other side of the picture, an interesting interplay with the Karanam text and together with the Kongu Rakjakkal savistara Caritram commissioned by a British collector and written by a Senji Narayanan in early 19th Century, it treats Desingu as a rebel, not so much a hero but as a foolhardy obstinate and immature young man and Sa'adatullah Khan as a patient, prudent ruler. All these texts are situated in a huge archive (the Mackenzie Collection) still waiting for the historians (Col. Mackenzie employed the same Karanam group to collect histories and make other kinds of surveys).

Thus a distinct historiographical mode developed in the 18th Century, which the authors label as the Karanam historiography, within a cultural ecology which distinguishes the historical from the non-historical text. Written in prose by a new middle level elite literati, they focus retrospectively on the great Telengana state of the Kakatiyas and the trans-regional state of Vijayanagar, marking a continuous collective historical memory reworked in the Karanam vision of the past. Starting from the Prataparudra caritramu of Ekamranatha (16th Century) it progresses through the bardic Kumara Ramuni Katha on the Kampili rulers, culminating in the more sophisticated texts of the Vijayanagara-Nayaka courtly style, like the Rayavacakamu (17th Century) and the Krsna Raya Vijayamu (a poem of the 18th Century) reaching its final phase in the Kaifiyats of the early 19th Century Mackenzie Collection, including the more full fledged history, Tanjavuri Andhra Rajula Caritra... Some of these texts also use the Kalajnana mode, "knowledge of time", a notion of temporality different from the sequential linear narrative of typical historical texts i.e., a double movement and recursive loops of time.

Karanam texts reflect the shift in historical awareness. They organise historical memory, its place at the centre of the emerging Nayaka system... They introduce increasing sophistication in their elaborate and reflective narratives, not committed to any mono-generic model. Karanam historiography has striking contrasts with the Perso-Arabic tradition in Arabia, Central Asia and Egypt, in its autonomy, pragmatism and strategic thinking, critical irony, distance from the court (although a part of the administration) not being court chronicles or institutional production of history by official appointees. Even European history of the period was an official or semi-official biography of the state. Historiography had established a significant place for itself in the South Asian ecology of genres. The authors have provided an interesting overview of the development of the Arabic and Persian historiographies and the broad modes or epistemic canopies under which they can be classified. The rich Indo-Persian historiography down to Jaswant Rai's Said nama, belongs to a different milieu related to the Karanam historiography. The Karanam historians borrowed freely from the lexicon of the Indo-Persian administration. Yet, the rise of historiography in south India is independent of either the Indo-Persian tradition or the Western Positivist influence with its "objective" history .


Comparing the Caritra (Telugu, Tamil and Sanskrit), Tarikh (Persian) and Bakhar (Marathi), and giving examples of all of them, the authors uphold the 18th Century as the richest of all centuries in terms of historiographic diversity and depth. It is the sphere of circulation (a public sphere) through paper and palm leaf manuscripts and copies of them, as found in many collections, and the interpenetrating cultures and languages, i.e. Persian and all other vernaculars, that led to this richness of historical writing, in which literati of different ethnicities, religions and stances participated, in order to discuss issues ranging from statecraft to astronomy. History possesses no fixed genre. It is the problem of genre that leads to the confusion between historical and non-historical texts. Central to the authors' judgment, therefore, is texture — framing, intention (who is remembering and why he/she is reconstructing the past), mode of narration, the language and in short, texture which takes us into the warp and weft of a text and demands attention to each of its threads. Thus Kalhana, we are told, was writing a poem ("Rajatarangini"), although he is often hailed as the only historian of early India. Ganga Devi was not "the first historian of South India" and was not writing history but a pseudo-history called historical kavya, a hollow category , as her Madhura Vijayam (of the 1350s) is aimed at eulogising Kampana, not in war but in the harem, for, his conquest of the south for the nascent Vijayanagara state turns out to be analogous to a vigorous raid on the boudoir.


To the historian this work is revealing and insightful in its historiographical reach. More important, it sounds a note of caution to the non-historian who meddles with history.

Textures of Time: Writing History in South India 1600-1800, Velcheru Narayana Rao, David Shulman and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, Permanent Black, Rs. 550.


R. Champakalakshmi is a noted historian who has specialised in South Indian History. She is the author of Tradition, Dissent and Ideology.



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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2008 05:13 am
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Rahul M wrote:
the example you have quoted however does not necessarily destroy my earlier assertion. this was 5100 against 15,000, ratio of ~ 1:3.
siraj against clive was 50000 against 3000 that's about 17 to 1 ! surely you can't call that bit of statistics irrelevant ?


The second example I quoted has under 8000 against over 50,000....a ratio of 1:7! Do you really imagine that had the Mughals had an extra 10,000 or 20,000 troops of the same quality, the result would have been any more diferent in these battles?

The truth is that larger numbers actually proved to be a hindrance on the battlefield, when the opponents had superior equipment, training, and leadership. In all three battles, the Mughal artillery was wildly inaccurate, even though the guns were better in range and firepower, and this shows poor training. The Mughal cavalry was unable to come near the British, being mowed down by artillery fire and the survivors picked out by the drilled infantry, their piled up remains forming a hindrance to their other comrades. While the rabble of infantry stayed rooted in their own lines and fled for their lives when they saw what happened to the cavalry.

And the wonder is that the British did not have their own cavalry in these battles! For in the future battles against other Indian powers the final blow was often applied by the EIC cavalry.

The truth is that Mughals had become deficient in equipment, training, and leadership. Even under a competent ruler like Aurangzeb the Mughal system of war did not bring the desired result in the Rajput War (1679-81) and failed entirely in the Deccan Wars against the Marathas and others.

Rahul M wrote:
AFAIK the brits captured ft. william when siraj was away. on hearing the news he came back but without a considerable part of his army which was sent to confront ahmad shah abdali, in bihar IIRC

:rotfl:
Ahmad Shah Abdali never invaded Bihar......forget Bihar he did not even invade Awadh, a richer province which sits between Delhi and Bihar! In 1757 he invaded Punjab and captured Delhi in January, defeated the Maratha general Antaji Mankeshwar in February, defeated the Jats in Mathura in March and sacked that city, fought the Naga Sanyyasis in Gokul, while his troops burnt, slaughtered, and raped all over that region south of Delhi.

But this very bloodletting created a cholera epidemic, which began killing hundreds of his soldiers daily. So in April 1757 he hastily withdrew from India.

While the English expeditionary force reached Bengal on 14 December 1756, and sent a threatening letter to Siraj, who was in his capital Murshidabad. Clive captured Calcutta, which the Shia Nawab had renamed Alinagar after hazrat Ali, from his general Manikchand without any fighting on January 2, 1757.

The English also plundered Hugli and destroyed many houses in that town.

Despite such outrage Siraj came to Calcutta and signed the Treaty of Alinagar on 9th February, conceding all the British demands. At this time Abdali was fighting Antaji Mankeshwar on the outskirts of Delhi......far away from Awadh, and far far far away from Bihar and Bengal! :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2008 06:14 am
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
Quote:
Ahmad Shah Abdali never invaded Bihar......forget Bihar he did not even invade Awadh, a richer province which sits between Delhi and Bihar! In 1757 he invaded Punjab and captured Delhi in January, defeated the Maratha general Antaji Mankeshwar in February, defeated the Jats in Mathura in March and sacked that city, fought the Naga Sanyyasis in Gokul, while his troops burnt, slaughtered, and raped all over that region south of Delhi.

Oh, come on ! I'm not saying he did ! :mrgreen:
but siraj did send a part of his army to bihar in case he showed up !

Quote:
While the English expeditionary force reached Bengal on 14 December 1756, and sent a threatening letter to Siraj, who was in his capital Murshidabad. Clive captured Calcutta, which the Shia Nawab had renamed Alinagar after hazrat Ali, from his general Manikchand without any fighting on January 2, 1757.

there was a battle between english and siraj forces, in which siraj gave up pretty early. it wasn't just letter and surrender. siraj had to save his H&D too, as little as could be salvaged by fighting a half-hearted battle ! :rotfl:

Quote:
Despite such outrage Siraj came to Calcutta and signed the Treaty of Alinagar on 9th February, conceding all the British demands. At this time Abdali was fighting Antaji Mankeshwar on the outskirts of Delhi......far away from Awadh, and far far far away from Bihar and Bengal!

thanks for the details. I know he never came to eastern India but the details were sketchy to me(I'm really more interested in ancient Indian history).

as always it has been a pleasure learning from you !


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2008 03:43 pm
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http://www.indianexpress.com/news/krugm ... us/373993/


Quote:
: What has the Indus Valley Civilisation got to do with Paul Krugman, who has just won the Nobel prize in economics? Quite a bit. The Indus Valley Civilisation, or Indus-Ghaggar-Hakra Civilisation or Indus-Sarasvati Civilisation, spanned several thousand years, from around 5500 BCE to around 1300 BCE, though the mature Harappan phase was from around 2600 BCE to around 1900 BCE. We haven’t quite been able to fit the Indus Valley Civilisation into our perceptions of Indian history, earlier hypotheses about an Aryan invasion or an Aryan-proto-Dravidian conflict having been somewhat discredited.

The work on human migrations, using genetic markers, is fascinating. Around 60,000 BCE, we originated in Africa. By 35,000 BCE, migration had taken place to India, Asia, Australia and the Americas, with a side-branch heading off to south-west

Europe. In subsequent years, cross-flows become more complicated. But if at all, evidence is of migration from broader India to broader Europe, rather than the other way round.

However, the myth of an Aryan invasion having destroyed the Indus Valley civilisation still continues, compounded by problems of equating the word “Arya” with ethnicity rather than language and our inability to decipher the Indus Valley script completely. What we do know is that this civilisation was, at least in its mature phase, an urban one, with urban planning, municipal governments and sewage, drainage and sanitation systems. It prospered on the basis on trade, commerce and transportation, though agriculture wasn’t unknown.

In contrast, the Vedic civilisation was nomadic and rural, with horses and chariots, unknown to Indus Valley. Nor do we quite know why the Indus Valley Civilisation declined. Perhaps no single explanation provides the answer, though climate change, deforestation and drying up of rivers played a role. Perhaps the word decline or destruction is inappropriate. The civilisation simply moved elsewhere and was assimilated, such as in Rajasthan and Gujarat. However, during the Vedic period (around 1500 BCE to 500 BCE), India de-urbanised and became increasingly rural. Neither of the two epics describes an urban centre in any great detail, barring Lanka, which was different. Urbanisation didn’t recover until Mahajanapadas of the post-500 BCE period and Mahajanapadas meant kingdoms or republics, rather than cities. At that time, there were 16 Mahajanapadas. Though lists differ, the most common list has Kashi, Koshala, Anga, Magadha, Vrijji, Malla, Chedi, Vatsa, Kuru, Panchala, Matysa, Surasena, Ashmaka, Avanti, Gandhara and Kamboja. But this is a list of kingdoms or...


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2008 10:29 pm
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Rahul M wrote:
but siraj did send a part of his army to bihar in case he showed up !


Rahul,

By the time news of Abdali's capture of Delhi and his advance southwards, reached Murshidabad, Siraj had already capitulated to the British. He did not send any part of his army to Bihar; the garrisons already present in Patna and other places were sufficient to guard the main towns. Hence Siraj had his full military strength to deploy against Clive.

Although the Abdali invasion may have had an impact on later events in Bengal, because Jagat Seth's banking agent in Agra named Shyamaldas had to pay 1 lakh rupees to the local Mughal officials so that they could buy off the invaders from sacking Agra. This additional burden may have influenced Jagat Seth into supporting Mir Jafar against Siraj.

ramana wrote:
Book Review from Hindu....

Its main aim of refuting the notion that historical consciousness did not exist in south India before the British conquest and that history is an alien import brought in by colonial rule, is achieved through a highly sophisticated approach and nuanced analysis, notwithstanding its conscious use of abstruse vocabulary, difficult to follow without some familiarity with the historical background.

Thus Kalhana, we are told, was writing a poem ("Rajatarangini"), although he is often hailed as the only historian of early India. Ganga Devi was not "the first historian of South India" and was not writing history but a pseudo-history called historical kavya, a hollow category , as her Madhura Vijayam (of the 1350s) is aimed at eulogising Kampana, not in war but in the harem, for, his conquest of the south for the nascent Vijayanagara state turns out to be analogous to a vigorous raid on the boudoir.

Velcheru Narayana Rao, David Shulman and Sanjay Subrahmanyam.


Sanjay Subrahmanyam is a hardcore leftist, an apologist for Islamists and EJs, and has written many anti-Hindu books and articles. Under the guise of providing a historical narrative of Southern Indian history, he and his co-authors continue with their attempts to cover up the ugly realities of the islamic invasions.

While focusing on the period 1600-1800 they manage to deride ancient Indian history in the form of Kalhana, whose Rajatarangini gave a gripping account of the history of Kashmir valley up to the time of the Islamic invasions.

And in South India they dismiss the writings of the Vijaynagar Princess Gangadevi because she gave an eye-witness account of the sack and massacres by the Muslim Turks in Madurai: “The sweet odor of the sacrificial smoke and the chant of the Vedas have deserted the villages, which are now filled with the foul smell of roasted flesh and the fierce noise of the ruffianly Turushkas. The suburban gardens of Madura present a most painful sight; many of their beautiful cocoanut palms have been cut down; and on every side are seen rows of stakes where swing garlands of human skulls strung together.”

Naturally such accounts are an inconvenient truth for these leftists, which they would like to supress. No wonder the Chindu is promoting such books......and no wonder Chennai has emerged as a center for Islamists, Marxists, and EJs.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2008 10:49 pm
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Airavat, do you have a translation of Ganga Devi's work? I have been searching far and wide but no avail.

Rye, That Ind express report is total bakwas and is also incomplete.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008 02:44 am
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Internet link on

Mudiraju Kingdoms of South India

Very fascinating. The British rule reduced all these to OBC status. :(


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008 03:22 am
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ramana wrote:
Airavat, do you have a translation of Ganga Devi's work? I have been searching far and wide but no avail.


The book that I have only contains the above passage along with some more tidbits:

"The Tamrapani is flowing red with the blood of the slaughtered cows. The Veda is forgotten, and justice has gone into hiding; there is not left any trace of virtue or nobility in the land and despair is writ large on the faces of the unfortunate Dravidas."

The passage is taken from an older book by K.A.Nilakanta Sastry which is available as a free ebook:

Further Sources Of Vijayanagara History

It's also available on Google Books.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008 05:47 pm
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it seems there are two translations of Gangadevi's work,

1) Translation by G. Harihara Sastri & Srinivasa Sastri and is at DLI site at IISC. Difficult to load.
2) Translation with commentary by Thiruvenkatachari and published by Madurai uty.

both are short ~ 84 pages.

I request TN members to look around and obtain copy of the later book.

Her work is crucial for I just realized what was going on. The Muslim raiders were keen to establish theri hold on Hindu holy sites just as they did at Jerusalem and Multan. Hence the Madurai Sultanate was setup. However Kamparaya, her husband, finished it off and was able to stabilize the Vijayanagar Kingdom for at least two centuries(till 1564) with this action. There was no such capability in the North till the rise of Marathas and Sikh kingdoms.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2008 01:59 am
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Vijayanagar stabilized a part of southern India and carried on a continuous war against its Muslim and Hindu (Orissa) neighbours.

In the north the same capability was displayed by the Kingdom of Mewar, which stabilized a part of the north and carried on a continuous war against its neighbouring sultanates and kingdoms. The centrepiece of this period of two centuries (14th-16th) was the fragmentation of Islamic power in India, which again happened later in the 18th century.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2008 01:04 am
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Thanks Airvat. Will read up on Mewar.

X-Posted

Acharya wrote:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/396/aryanhistoryld5.gif


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2008 07:15 am
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Oh Boy how I wish this move actually works

Quote:
Anti-Left forum comes up ahead of JNUSU polls


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Anti-Left_forum_ahead_of_JNUSU_polls/articleshow/3627642.cms

From the above article
Quote:
Led by an Iranian student, Farbode Vasighi, the newly formed 'Anti Communist League' is an effort to take all the forces together to prove that JNU is not limited to Left's ideology alone.

“Anti-Left forces are not less than pro-Left forces in JNU. Then why JNU is called Left's bastion. It has a national character,” said Farbode, a student of Persian Centre.


Quote:
According to the constitution of JNUSU, the elections should have been over by October 21 this year. But, these Left groups purposefully conduct elections in festive season of Diwali and 'Chhath', due to which our supporters go home and we get less votes in the elections," said Amit Srivastava, a PhD student and co-convener of the forum.

Accusing the administration of targeting non-left students, he said, "Teachers in JNU have been a cadre of Left. You can be targeted in any way here."


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2008 01:51 pm
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Why does it take an Iranian student to start such movements?

Do you remember that scene in "Gandhi", where he dismisses the white priest saying that "Indians have to do this for themselves" (or something to that extent). A victory doesn't mean anything if others do it for you.

Hopefully, he might be catalyst for larger, more Indian organization on the sub-continent.

Nevertheless, its interesting to see foreign students doing work in India.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2008 03:53 pm
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X-posted from IF

Viren wrote:
Myths of 19th Century Science: The Indo-European Invasions

Quote:
"The theory of invasion is an invention. This invention is necessary because of a gratuitous assumption that the Indo-Germanic people are the purest of the modern representation of the original Aryan race. The theory is a perversion of scientific investigation. It is not allowed to evolve out of facts. On the contrary, the theory is preconceived and facts are selected to prove it. It falls to the ground at every point." – Dr. B. R. Ambedkar




And read together with the Talegeri post in the psy-ops thread.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies - 2
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2008 07:13 pm
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If Babasaheb Ambedkar's fine sense of intuition and wisdom was able to see through the AIT, what makes the likes of Arjun Singh and his HRD drones push that tripe down the throat of Indians SIXTY years after independence? Don't those mofos have any sense of curiosity about knowing the truth in the HRD? Are they that dumb (or corrupt) that they do not really care if they live a lie without knowing any better about the real origins of India?

At least they are making education as a priority (news item below) , but it may just as important as what all this education imparts to children -- LYING (like the AIT) is never a good option.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Educ ... 659677.cms


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2008 05:31 pm
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Vijayanagara

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Vijayanagara: Splendour in ruins Edited by George Michell, The Alkazi Collection of Photography, Mapin, Unesco, Price not mentioned

“The pupil of the eye has never seen a place like it,” wrote a Persian envoy to the court of King Devaraya II in the mid-15th century, about what he saw of the splendour of Vijayanagara. Abdur Razzaq — like the many European travellers who left wondrous accounts in the 15th and 16th centuries — was talking about the military empire founded in the wake of the Muslim invasions of peninsular India, stretching across the entire South India except for the Kerala coast. What became a showpiece of imperial magnificence lasted until the catastrophic battle of Talikota in 1565. Since then, pillaging armies, centuries of treasure-seekers and Time itself have turned it into one of the world’s most magnificent ruins, drawing artists, photographers and archaeologists from the earliest years of the 19th century, as did the ruins of Rome and Athens. This is the colonial and postcolonial story of how a tragic monument of the history of South India became a Unesco World Heritage site in 1986.

George Michell, an architect and archaeologist, has co-directed a team of researchers at the Vijayanagara site between 1980 and 2001. He has put together in Vijayanagara: Splendour in Ruins a richly layered, meticulously documented and beautifully designed photographic and historical archive. Many histories converge in this volume. First, a political, cultural and, more specifically, architectural history of the Vijayanagara kingdom, succinctly documented by Anila Verghese, and deftly laid out in Michell’s maps, plans and detailed, site-specific account of the entire spread of the ruins. Second, the book provides a specialized visual history of British colonialism, in its efforts to document, represent and interpret the Vijayanagara ruins in various media from around the year 1800, when the site came under British rule.

Finally, and perhaps most splendidly, Splendour in Ruins is a major contribution to the history of photography, drawing from the Alkazi Collection of Photography (an archive of 19th- and early-20th-century photographic prints, negatives and albums from South and South-east Asia), and setting new standards in the curation, interpretation and reproduction of early photography in India. The preface by the Australian architectural photographer, John Gollings, brings to the book’s images acute technical and creative insights gained from trying to retrace the practice of these 19th-century photographers of Vijayanagara with modern equipment. Gollings’s own work had pinpointed the exact spots where they had pitched their tripods a century and a half ago, much as Christopher Rauschenberg has “rephotographed” Eugène Atget’s Paris. Sophie Gordon and Mike Ware’s essays on the photographers and on the processes by which they made their images work into this book the “archive fever” that could enliven the work of historians as well as photographers.

All the photographs reproduced above are positives made in 2007 from more than a hundred “waxed-paper negatives” left by Alexander Greenlaw (1818-70). He was an Englishman stationed at the British cantonment at Bellary from 1863, was transferred to Burma, and came back to India to die and be buried in Coonoor. Greenlaw, who knew Hindi and Tamil and was the official interpreter to the corps, made these photographs as a “committed amateur”, not as a government commission but “purely to satisfy a personal desire to explore the site”. Only the negatives, and no prints, survive, and most of the former were made in 1856. But Greenlaw’s name has become part of the history of photography not only because of the beauty of his images, but also because of his adaptation of Henry Talbot’s calotype method of photography, already a “dying process” then, to Indian conditions of light, temperature and humidity. The two images (bottom right) of the Narasimha monolith, allow one to compare the modern positive with Greenlaw’s negative, remarkable for its sheer size (445x402 mm). He worked in a large format demanding small apertures and long exposures.

On the left, is Greenlaw’s remarkably sharp view of the east gopura of the Virupaksha Temple. The background is blank and cloudless because the blue sky always exposes as white on paper negatives, while warm and coloured stone comes out much darker than is apparent. Top right is the King’s Balance in front of a double-storeyed gateway by the Tungabhadra river. This balance weighed the Vijayanagara rulers against jewels and coins, which were then distributed to Brahmins. Greenlaw keeps his bare-bodied and turbaned local assistants in the frame; in architectural photography, this usually indicated the scale. But these human presences, one of them asleep on the ancient stone, become traces of yet another history, which photography saves from oblivion, if not from silence and slow time.

AVEEK SEN


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2008 07:02 pm
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Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
going through the ISRO booklet pdf on CY1, I got a pleasant surprise.
http://www.isro.org/chandrayaan/resourc ... ooklet.pdf

Quote:
.............................. One of the oldest Indian scriptures ‘Àgveda’
which originated in Indus valley civilization states.


(the sanskrit sloka that I haven't been able to copy)

O Moon! We should be able to know you through our intellect,
You enlighten us through the right path.
Àgveda Part – I/91/1
(About 2000 years B.C)

tacitly identifying the Saraswati civilization as the same as the so-called aryan civilization.

in terms of psy-ops they have shot AIT for a toss !

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