Tuesday, August 18, 2009

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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2008 12:40 am
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Swapan Dasgupta in TOI:
Looking for the real Nehru

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It is hazardous to make sweeping generalisations of the national character. At the risk of being pilloried, let me reiterate the 11th century Arab traveller Alberuni’s observation that Hindus (as Indians were then known) have no sense of history. Indeed, they can scarcely distinguish it from mythology. Whether it’s Akbar, Aurangzeb and Shivaji or Curzon, Gandhi and Nehru, history writing in India is aimed at upholding greatness or reinforcing villainy. Revisionism is invariably a law and order problem.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2008 02:02 am
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Quote:
Swapan Dasgupta in TOI:
Looking for the real Nehru


From the link given by nkumar

Yet, that doesn’t mean he liked children, as India has been taught to believe. Crocker comes perilously close to describing Nehru as just another clever politician: ‘‘Nehru certainly did some acting on public occasions and before TV cameras... The acting was never worse than the pose of Chacha Nehru with the children. This was at its worst on his birthday for a few years when sycophants organised groups of children, with flowers and copious photographing, to parade with him. It was out of character; his interest in children was slender.’’ :rotfl:

That Nehru was intellectually superior and didn’t tolerate fools easily are attributes that have been diligently recorded. Less publicised was the strong impression that his enlightenment was often offset by blind hates. Among Nehru’s ‘prejudices’ Crocker records were ‘‘maharajas, Portugal, moneylenders, certain American ways, Hinduism, the whites in Africa...’’ The list explains why Nehru was so offensive at the opening of the Ramakrishna Mission Institute in Calcutta, 1961.

There he spoke of ‘‘bogus spirituality’’, the absurdity of ‘‘running away from the daily problems of life in the spirituality’’ — the profundities of undergrad radicalism — and then stalked off. Had a prime minister conducted himself so disagreeably today, he would either have had to grovel or face a riot. Nehru was fortunate his haughtiness could ride piggyback on the goodwill of the Congress and the national movement.

Nehru, it was said, ‘‘could be emphatic on a basis of insufficient knowledge’’. He may have begun with a caricatured hatred of moneylenders but it soon extended into distaste for the entire private sector. Like the fellow travellers of Stalin, he juxtaposed science with what he considered religious mumbo-jumbo and came to view everything Hindu with utmost wariness.
Like Crocker, he probably believed that the India of ‘‘cow worshippers and devotees of ayurvedic medicine and astrology’’ should be banished from public life. And like his upper-class English friends, he found self-made Americans, particularly John Foster Dulles, crass and tiresome. Predictably, he liked the Kennedys; they were different.

From such parodies were the three pillars of the Nehruvian order, secularism, non-alignment and socialism, crafted.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2008 04:35 am
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A historical description of Food in Vijayanagar kingdom


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2008 05:02 am
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http://www.textbookreviews.org/

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World History

Prevent stereotypes of whites-as-oppressors and people-of-color-as-victims from slanting discussions of Western imperialism by noting that:


British rule brought peace and a common language (English) to deeply divided India, ended or opposed suttee, infanticide, and child marriage there, improved Indian health, education, and transportation systems, and merely added another caste to the existing system.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2008 09:33 pm
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The website is up and running for ICIH 2009


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2008 12:00 am
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Excellent Job, Sir. This should be read by everyone.

If I am in Delhi at the time, will certainly try to make it to the IIC.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 15 Dec 2008 05:25 pm
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Hinduism Today magazine talks about Hindu History in American schools

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3-BOsyYHw8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3-BOsyYHw8

Here are the chapters on Hindu history talked about in the videos above.

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/education/ ... Lesson.pdf
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/education/ ... 0-1100.pdf


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2008 04:56 am
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
X-post.

Rahul M wrote:
I'm not sure what would be the right thread for this.

some people may remember n^3ji's comments about Swami Ranganathananda, President of RamKrishna Mission who died in harness.

a really great thinker and one of the last giants of our time.

in recognition of His contribution to Indic thought, a stamp has been brought out in His name.
Image

I really urge BRFites to go through His works and also ask your friends and relatives to do the same.
Ardent followers of His works included people like indira gandhi and APJ Abdul Kalam.

http://www.ncte-in.org/pub/other/swami/author.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Ranganathananda


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2008 03:55 pm
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I would like to know what was the thinking in the Hindus kingdoms about the repeated raids of Mahmud of Ghazni? What did they feel and do to stop the murderer?

Also what was the thinking in Prithviraj Chauhan's mind vis a vis Ghori? Did he ever think of carrying th efight to Ghori's land and stopping him there?
Why does Indic mind want to fight at Panipat then the problem is at the frontiers?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2008 04:36 pm
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ramana wrote:
I would like to know what was the thinking in the Hindus kingdoms about the repeated raids of Mahmud of Ghazni? What did they feel and do to stop the murderer?

Also what was the thinking in Prithviraj Chauhan's mind vis a vis Ghori? Did he ever think of carrying th efight to Ghori's land and stopping him there?
Why does Indic mind want to fight at Panipat then the problem is at the frontiers?
Here is a claim, I am looking validation for.

No one from Hindu lands, made an effort to learn about the ideology of Islam, ever, until recent times. This lack of understanding of how Islam works was one of the fundamental reasons, why Hindus acted the way they did. Accepting Allah as a legitimate God and the ways of the muslims, as an acceptable way for man kind. If that is true, how could a Hindu, fight a battle to the finish?

We know more about, the fragmented nature of the Indian political systems, especially in the post gupta periods, that also partly explains the behavior of many Indian monarchs.

So, the lack of a strong enough political structure coupled with the lack of knowledge about the "outsider" were the fundamental reasons.

There are about 8-10 more detail reasons, on why we lost the battles. I will try to dig them up.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2008 04:52 pm
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^^^

Distorted history says that Budhdhism controlled the Huns. This has been the standard feed in our schools. Nobody talks much about Skandagupta, whose military expeditions from the heart of India to Afghanistan actually stopped the Huns. Do not have a reference but have heard that that when the wind blew in the shrubs, the terrified Huns thought about Skanda's advancing military. I do not have tools of historical analysis with me, but it seems that post Gupta kings had that defeat and assimilation of the Huns in mind. In a way they did not think that the enemy can have an ideology behind the invasion, which apparently the Huns did not have.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2008 05:00 pm
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@ ramana, shaurya

you look around right now and see if you say all this more directly on forum. you cannot, right? somebody will object. ask everyone not to be bloodthirsty, have to live in peace, etc etc. can u do it in india? no, right? same stuff. ask you to light a candle. we are still stuck on same words people 1000 years back were when same mumbai type attack was even more common. even then same questions, same PC, non PC business. same paralysis.

so old india was same as new india. it also had many congress, cpi types ruling over indian citizen and who did best to break hinduism for own gain and took pleasure in rival parties problem while ignoring ghazni or babur. and when ghazni and babur came in, then these congress types of that time quickly joined hand with them and got to rule as local representative of these people.

basically history repeats


Last edited by Vikram_S on 16 Dec 2008 05:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2008 05:09 pm
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Kaushal: Is Prof. R.N.Iyengar attending this meet? I have read several of his writings related to Mahabharatam dating.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2008 03:49 pm
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S. Balagangadhara writes on the ideology of the terrorists

The Saint, The Criminal And The Terrorist


I submit that terrorist attacks from Islamist countries are a throwback ot the old razas of Muhmmad's time. To treat them as mere acts of criminals is not to understand the true nature of the raid.

I wonder if all those so called invasions by Ghazni and Ghori were razas and not true invasions. It was only when Prithviraj Chauhan was captured that they thought of sending governor(Aibek) to Dilli and thus transformed a raid inot a conquest.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2008 02:08 am
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Ramachandra Guha

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THREE men did most to make Hinduism a modern faith. Of these the first was not recognised as a Hindu by the Shankaracharyas; the second was not recognised as a Hindu by himself; the third was born a Hindu but made certain he would not die as one.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2008 10:48 pm
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ramana wrote:
I wonder if all those so called invasions by Ghazni and Ghori were razas and not true invasions. It was only when Prithviraj Chauhan was captured that they thought of sending governor(Aibek) to Dilli and thus transformed a raid inot a conquest.


Ghazni's invasions in other parts of India were raids but his war against the Hindu Shahis was for territory in Punjab where his descendants established a kingdom. Ghori's campaigns were meant for creating an empire. In both cases the raids accumulated money, which financed further raids and expansion.

Reverse raids by Hindu Kingdoms were not possible because there was nothing to loot in the barren lands across the Sindhu.

The economic wealth in India came from agriculture, industry, and trade, all of which meant flourishing cities and a widely dispersed dense population in numerous villages. By contrast lands across the Sindhu were barren, thinly populated, and with few cities. What this meant was that an army from outside found plenty to loot in India, but an Indian army had to make extensive preparations for sustaining its forces in those barrern enemy lands.

And the 12th century Hindu Kingdoms were not alone in this experience. Even the Mughal Empire, when it attempted a conquest of Central Asia under Shah Jahan, failed miserably because of financial reasons. There wasn't enough by way of captured wealth to finance the expedition and no productive lands to persuade the Indian generals to live in Central Asia....they preferred the wealthy lifestyle in India to the mean subsistence on grasslands and icy rivers, and the huge Mughal army returned after spending crores and with no material gains.

The British Empire in the 19th century had the same problem. This is why they ended by establishing military bases along the frontier on a large scale, connected by an extensive road and rail network, and continuously supplied with men and munitions. Something similar could have happened in the 12th century, but for that an empire had to be established first within India, which the Guptas had done in the 4th century and the Pratihars had done in the 8th century against the Arabs.

The Chauhan clan starting from their base in Sambhar district, had by the time of Prithviraj III a large kingdom, but needed some more time to assimilate rival kingdoms like the Chalukyas in Gujarat and Chandellas in Bundelkhand to form an empire like that of the Pratihars.

But they never got that time and had to die fighting against the Turks; their remnants continued that resistance from forts like Ranthambhor for one full century, before another kingdom like Mewar and others rose to defeat and expel the Turks from Rajasthan in the 14th century.

added later:

The Sikh conquest of Peshawar, Kashmir, Multan, etc is rightly regarded as an important achievement, but this would not have been possible without the Treaty of Amritsar (1809), between the Raja of Lahore (as Ranjit Singh is called in that document) and the EIC.

By this treaty Ranjit Singh gave up his claims on Sikh lands south of the Sutlej, and in return the British promised not to intervene or help any other chiefs north of that river. This gave Ranjit Singh a free hand to expand into the north and the west; he did not need to keep any large troop formations to watch the southern border. Indeed the treaty actually barred him from doing so.

While some regard this treaty as a setback to the Sikhs, given all the circumstances it was a wise decision by Ranjit Singh to be on friendly terms with the EIC.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2008 07:52 pm
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Ghazni's invasions in other parts of India were raids but his war against the Hindu Shahis was for territory in Punjab where his descendants established a kingdom. Ghori's campaigns were meant for creating an empire. In both cases the raids accumulated money, which financed further raids and expansion.


Mahmud could have been motivated from several factors (1) he is known to have been literate in Islamic theology, so possibly taken seriously/used for justification the Hadithic injunction of "Ghazwa-e-Hind", and there are numismatic evidence of his posing as a champion of the Khaliphate's expansionist program - so not a simple raid/territorial expansion only (2) pressure from newer Turks who however ultimately moved west - it is significant to note that his descendants were restricted more and more to the south-eastern parts into Indian Multan after the sack of Ghazni by Ghori and complete burning and looting of the capital built at a cost of 17 million dirhams from the loot of India extracted by Mahmud. There also appears to be lot of discrepancy in the figures for the number of raids or campaigns and archaeological claims of defeating the Islamic hordes by "Hindu" kings - it is possible that the Islamic chroniclers simply do not record the numerous defeats or reversals.

Quote:
Reverse raids by Hindu Kingdoms were not possible because there was nothing to loot in the barren lands across the Sindhu.
The economic wealth in India came from agriculture, industry, and trade, all of which meant flourishing cities and a widely dispersed dense population in numerous villages. By contrast lands across the Sindhu were barren, thinly populated, and with few cities. What this meant was that an army from outside found plenty to loot in India, but an Indian army had to make extensive preparations for sustaining its forces in those barrern enemy lands.


Well, in that case Alexander should not have chased Darius into Guagamela, or crossed into central Asian extensions of the Persian empire, or returned to Susa by the most punishing routes after leaving Sind. The Indians were thinking in terms of only land campaigns - and there is evidence that they had started neglecting the naval warfare angle. The Chinese and Islamic chroniclers do notice that the Indian ships were getting behind in speed, strength and "class" compared to the Arabs, the Ceylonese and the Chinese. A campaign like that of Alexander which kept its troops supplied from the sea with a strong navy could have taken out Baghdad - the seat of political militancy and planning of campaigns against India by the Caliphate. The Indian maritime dominance of the Arabian sea would have also solved the "loss of trade" problem that appears to have created a lot of "boot licking" among the Indian "princes" to curry favour with the Islamic "hordes".

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The British Empire in the 19th century had the same problem. This is why they ended by establishing military bases along the frontier on a large scale, connected by an extensive road and rail network, and continuously supplied with men and munitions. Something similar could have happened in the 12th century, but for that an empire had to be established first within India, which the Guptas had done in the 4th century and the Pratihars had done in the 8th century against the Arabs.


Is it possible that the strength of the Buddhist and Jaina moralism had prevented the formation of ruthless military practices or strategic thinking? Empire formation needed a degree of ruthlessness and lack of scruples which were strongly discouraged by the existing moral climate - such moves by a king could have had very negative repercussions on the legitimacy of the ruler among the populace as well as powerful networks of temples/akharas/maths/viharas.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2008 08:18 pm
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
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Is it possible that the strength of the Buddhist and Jaina moralism had prevented the formation of ruthless military practices or strategic thinking? Empire formation needed a degree of ruthlessness and lack of scruples which were strongly discouraged by the existing moral climate - such moves by a king could have had very negative repercussions on the legitimacy of the ruler among the populace as well as powerful networks of temples/akharas/maths/viharas.

AFAIK buddhism was already on the wane during the islamic campaign on India.
while the influence of its thought was still great I think the pacifist effects of buddhism has been over-hyped to some extent.

the bengal palas for example were buddhists but they were very active in conquests and warfare.
they certainly exibited no pacifism when it came to administration.

reluctance of Indians to "hot pursuit" is perhaps better ascribed to kupamanduk behaviour, one that STILL afflicts us today.
serious lack of understanding of the enemy's motive is the hallmark of this mentality.
add to that "they don't have anything I want" and you have the classic "turtle" military mentality.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2008 10:17 pm
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Brihaspati, Have you looked at Ghazni's kingdom thru Middle Eastern history prespective. It was the time the Seljuk Turks were advancing and takingover the runing of the Calipate. Ghazni was a frontier outpost for them and became a center for expanding the Islamic power into Indian sub-continent. About 60 years after the second Battle of Terain (1192) the Bagdad calipate was sacked by Mongols and ended.

If the Chauhans were building a successor empire to stop the Islamic incrusions that would have happened only at cost of the local kingdoms and that would explain their lack of support to Prithivi Raj and in some cases outright hostility which made them support the invaders.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2008 11:00 pm
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AFAIK buddhism was already on the wane during the islamic campaign on India.
while the influence of its thought was still great I think the pacifist effects of buddhism has been over-hyped to some extent.

the bengal palas for example were buddhists but they were very active in conquests and warfare.
they certainly exibited no pacifism when it came to administration.


The Islamic campaigns started in the late 600's, and the first significant inroads were by Muhammad, (son-in-law of Hajjaj) in 713-714 against Dahir in Sind. The Palas had not become a significant imperial power at this stage. The breach made in Multan by Muhammad was maintained in Multan and Mansura through the 800's and the 900's leading to the more famous campaigns of Mahmud. But if you think of it the earlier parts of the Islamic campaign comes in the immediate aftermath of the Buddhist revival under Harsha, and the increasingly thriving Buddhist townships of learning centres like Odantapuri and Nalanda in exactly this period may not actually indicate waning Buddhist influence. The Jaina traditions also indicate a moralistic restrictive attitude towards exploration and military ruthlessness.

Accepting that the Palas appear to have favoured "Buddhism" over other faiths, and still waged war does not detract from the possible influence of Buddhist morals on waging war under "niti" - same could be apparent in the various central-northern Indian princes under Jaina influence - the indications of "magnanimity" or principled stand in waging war against the Muslims by the north-Indian princes shows up a weakness not seen in the Arthasastra or the legendary tactical exploits of Ashoka. The matching of Islamic tactics by ruthless deception and everything aimed at liquidation and erasure of the "enemy" was absent - time and time again we find the enemy allowed to escape, not pursued, allowed to recover, not tortured to death, not enslaved, - no enjoyment of the Sadistic torture or treatment of relatives and dependants as part of psychological warfare - no - all these are present on the Islamic side, present in theory in Arthasastra, but noweher present in the behaviour of the Indian princes. I think this is a clear indication of Buddhist and Jaina morals that modified and restricted strategic and tactical flexibility in warfare from the Indian side.

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If the Chauhans were building a successor empire to stop the Islamic incrusions that would have happened only at cost of the local kingdoms and that would explain their lack of support to Prithivi Raj and in some cases outright hostility which made them support the invaders.


I agree, and the Seljuk Turks really caused the Ghaznavid empire a lot of sleepless nights. However, Prithviraj was not entirely alone as far as we can reconstruct in the first battle of Tarain. There does appear to be repeated alliances between the princes to face the common threat of Islamic invasions. The major problem seems to be with Jayachand only. An early opportunity to patch up with the Chalukyas was lost due to the advice of the minister of an younger and inexperienced Prithviraj - and not necessarily a fault of the "other" - the Chalukyas. The very fact that the possibility of such coordination rose against Ghori's early expeditions prove that such coordination proposals did come up in reality.

Two aspects that we are perhaps not analyzing that much are (1) whether the prevailing philosophies and religions prevented the Indian leadership from realizing the true danger of Islam, and therefore the need for rising above narrow regional or clan loyalties - something that had happened historically facing the threat of disruptive foreign incursions for at least the two known "great empires" based in India - the Mauryas against Persian/Greek and the Guptas against the Shakas/Hunas (2) the possible effects of cyclical natural "catastrophes" like El Nino or other cyclical periods of drought and non-productivity. One cycle that could be important is a 1500 year cycle that appears to be prominent in all major historical civilizations simultaneously - 2300 BCE (Egypts pyramid-dynasty declines with known records of drought and devastation lasting 200 years - similar records exist for the middle and near east and the north-Indian riverine civilizations of the late Harappa period) - 800 BCE - and finally 700 C.E. We do hear increasing incidence of droughts in this period in India, but we do not have very serious studies of this question for India. If a drought lasting 100-200 years really ravaged the country at this time, that could explain a lot of the inability of the princes to defend their country as well as increasing raids by the hungry hordes from even drier and less productive central-west Asia.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2008 12:58 am
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Kaushal wrote:


Kaushal, has my dad, Mr. Vishnu Swaroop Misra, sent in his abstract on Ancient Indian Dynasties yet? His book is doing well.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2008 01:00 am
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taking the 2300BCE date can you forward project the 1500 year cycle and see where that lands us. And then we can look at the body of Sanskrit literature post-Harshavardhana and pre-Islamic to see if there are whines/lamnets about drought and failing rains etc.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2008 01:38 am
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Ramanaji,
thank you for pointing this out. As calculated in my earlier post - this should come to 700 CE. I looked up in my older notes just now - here is my quick survey:

Famines in this period - seem to be rather common:
(1) Ganjam (Russelkonda plates) of Nettabhanja, Epigraphia Indica vol 28,
(2) Prabandhachintamani
(3) Samayamatrika
(4) Uktivyaktiprakarana.
The Brihannaradyia Purana placed approximately in this period, says in describing typical condition of Kali age as "people will be gravely distressed by famine and will migrate to countries rich in wheat and barley". Trisastislalakapurushacharita refers to famines "terrible with universal destruction". Aparajitaprccha talsk about the tremendous losses brought about by famines- under stress of famine dharma declines, and the subjects and rulers suffer alike. Prabandhachintamani and Kathakosha refer to famines lasting for 12 or more years at a stretch. I find several references in Lekhapaddhati. Prabandhachintamani refers to a massive famine in Gujarat during Chalukya king Bhima, another happened during Vishaladeva as mentioned in Jagaducharita. Rajatarangini refers to two disastrous famines in Kashmir in 917-16 during Partha and another under Harsha in 1099-1011.

Prabandhachintamani does refer explicitly to droughts as causes of famine in this period. Aparajitaprchha calims this to be the most important cause. Brihannaradyia also thinks so. However there are other texts which seem to attach importance to additional causes like unexpected and excessive flooding - Kathakosa, Agni Purana, Visesha-sataka of Shyamsundar Ganin etc. There appears also to be reference to political tension resultimg from inability of the kings to extract taxes or their attempts to continue to do so (Kalhana compares the people to old bullocks loaded with boulders - in reference to Partha and Harsha's activities). A characteristic of this long-period El-Nino cycles is in fact prolonged periods of general drought, with intensive patches, and occasional catastrophic rainfall and flooding. El Nino's effects were in fact first noticed by studying Indian monsoon rainfall patterns and their connection to fluctuations in sea-surface temperature in the Pacific, in 19th century. It would be great, if others could give more historical references.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2008 05:02 am
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By Jupiter you got it! 8)

Now turn this into a paper ASAP before the johlawalas steal it.And better yet hot foot it to the history seminar to be held in jan 9, 09 in Delhi by kaushal.

I guess I should become an adviser or research director who points out where to beat the bushes!
----------------

Some thing to mull over

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Niño-Southern_Oscillation

In the bible they talk of the story of Joseph and his multi-colored coat fame. He interprets a dream that the Pharoh has of seven years of plenty and seven years of drought and is appointed as vizier to mitigate the after effects. So this would be of the aftermath of the 2300 BCE date.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2008 10:54 pm
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Ramanaji,
just a followup : there does seem to be good corroboration from the Dandak cave data which I looked up last night. But, a thought - we also have to consider the effects of human contributions to famines when tallying the famine data. There does appear to be some overlap between the very dry cycles in late Sultanate period (which also come under the "little ice age" period) and what I know of the effects of the taxation policy of Alauddin Khalji as per chroniclers.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2008 05:55 pm
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Remembering a glorious rebel


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2008 07:13 pm
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The author's prestige makes me shaky a bit! However I have severe problems with his hypothesis.

Quote:
Remembering a glorious rebel
V.R. Krishna Iyer
Was not the kingdom of god that Jesus held up but the forerunner to socialism, social justice, secularism and democracy? He was a raging egalitarian, an invisible socialist, and an economic democrat.


This sounds similar to what the Thaparites start off as : raise speculative questions about a particular historical process, use selective narratives that support answering the speculation in the affirmative and ignore those which do not, and then construct a new narrative where the speculation itself is interwoven as truth.

Quote:
Jesus, born of humble parents in Bethlehem, rose as a glorious phenomenon. He became a world wonder of spiritual-temporal revolution against an imperial establishment and a corrupt priestly order. Judas Iscariot betrayed his master for a few pieces of silver. Every barbarity from those treacherous days still exists, indeed in magnified malignancy, to victimise the have-not humanity and slay the radical humanist and activist.


Here historical Jesus and literary Jesus appears to be mixed up and the author is not making it clear whether he is referring to one or the other - for each will have to be supported by appropriate reference and arguments. We do not know if the historical Jesus "was a glorious phenomenon" in his day. Whatever became of his teachings as codified finally into the "spiritual-temporal revolution" as textually handed down to us was definitely shaped by an exclusive and ultra conservative religious establishment of "bishops" working under the watchful eyes of an emperor known to history for his ruthlessness and imperial thrust. Judas is claimed to be the betrayer in the gospels selected by this conclave of Bishops, and the other pre Nicaean strands of Christianity declared heretic and ruthlessly exterminated did turn up very alternative and contradictory depictions of Judas.

Quote:
Lofty testament
For all of humankind, Jesus’ magnificent, yet militant, teaching was a lofty testament of egalitarian liberation from obscurantist faith, authoritarian politics, theological orthodoxy and big business freebooting. Similarly, the ring of his message constituted a de facto revolt against Roman imperialism, absolutist injustice and priest-proud godism. He stood for a higher culture marked by a sacred, sublime, compassionate ethos, and a divinity of humanity that is free from crass, class-mired materialism and gross, greedy, grabbing riches. This rare man of Nazareth resisted Jewish ecclesiastical domination, opposed discrimination among brothers and demanded, in God’s name, socio-economic justice. This is the essence of the Jesus jurisprudence of human dignity, inner divinity and fraternal obligation to help every brother in distress.


The only contemporary record by Josephus, refers to a "troublemaker" from Nazareth. But even more than that the problem becomes why such a "lofty testament" (if it was really delivered by Jesus at his time in this form) invariably led to its consolidation as the foremost arm of empire building or preserving tottering authoritarian regimes. The two major formative thrusts that have shaped surviving Christianity is the consolidation under Constantine and Carolus Magnus - both had to impose a very very bloody conversion regime to get it accepted "universally" - why did commoner Germans/Saxons resist this lofty egalitarian liberation - as far as we know from Gaius Julius Caesar and Tacitus, they led a far more egalitarian life than those who brought Christianity to them.

Quote:
Born into a carpenter’s family, Jesus lived a sage and simple life and chose his disciples from a weaker section of society — indigent fishermen. He symbolised a revolutionary change in the theological-temporal establishment and advocated social justice and divinity, dignity and equity in the social order.

Unfortunately not all seem to be fishermen - if we do not forget Mary Magdalene (Paul was a later convert who was an early persecutor). Sages and simple life do not seem naturally placed with supposed "prostitutes" (as per most major existing Christian sects) as expected in "western spiritualism" - although quite well known and much older in tradition in the East - think someone called the Buddha.

Quote:
Such a transformation was the truth of the kingdom of heaven, which was a challenge to the Roman Empire, the Jewish priestocracy and the arbitrary justice system that then prevailed. H.G Wells wrote: “This doctrine of the Kingdom of Heaven, which was the main teaching of Jesus, is certainly one of the most revolutionary doctrines that ever stirred and changed human thought. It is small wonder if, the world of that time [and of our time, if this writer may add] failed to grasp its full significance, and recoiled in dismay from even a half apprehension of its tremendous challenges to the established habits and institutions of mankind.”
Rare daring
Jesus, the glorious rebel, proclaimed the reality of a universal moral order. He called it the kingdom of heaven and told the people that the kingdom of god was indeed within them. He outraged the hypocrites who did their commerce inside the temples and the shrines. He drove them out with rare daring. Now, right before our eyes, our temples and churches are again centres of big business.

It would be revolutionary if it had never been discussed before. Even forgetting Buddha's "universal moral order" the practical implication as the Buddha supposedly saw of the "Mahadhamma", a host of Jewish "prophets" had been prophesying about the "Kingdom of Heaven" on "earth" long before the arrival of Jesus.

The next few paragraphs appear to be talking about the literary Jesus, and there is no way of establishing whether this was definitely not part of a general or prevalent lore of spiritual ideals followed by various contemporary Jewish sects.

Quote:
Barabbas jurisprudence
The abolition of poverty is a socialist feature of the societal structure. In order to wipe every tear of grief from every eye, you need a social transformation and an economic regeneration, a special concern for women and children, and a rage against those who rob the people’s resources. This is the majesty and humanity of true spirituality that was absent during the era of Emperor Tiberius. It was his administration and justice delivery system, presided over in the region by Pontius Pilate, which decreed, with perverse judicial power and under pressure from the priestly class and in exercise of state authority that Jesus, who argued for the kingdom of heaven, be put to the cross. When treason was the charge and the priestly order was exposed by the accused, there was terrific pressure on the Governor-judge to sentence him. The same judge set free Barabbas. Even today innocence suffers state punishment and robbery rides state power. Barabbas jurisprudence is in currency even today.

This is frankly "b*******". I am really sorry to say, the learned author has not kept up on his historical studies. The Roman governor at this upswinging phase of Roman empire, under pressure of the locals? He does not show any weakness in dealing with locals and faced definitely with much larger "rebellions". Many scholars think that it was the Romans who insisted on getting rid of Jesus - and that the populace demanded Jesus's release. Does the author know the full name of Barabbas?

Quote:
Jesus advocated the unity and fraternity of humanity, like the doctrine of Advaita that Adi Sankara propagated as an upanishadic fundamental. Not only did he strike at patriotism and the bonds of family loyalty in the name of God’s universal fatherhood and the brotherhood of all mankind, his teaching condemned all the gradations of the economic system, all private wealth, and personal advantage. He said: “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.”

Unity and fraternity of humanity as propounded in the surviving doctrines of Christianity is completely diffferent from "Advaita of Adi Shankara". However what is the interpretation of "give Caesar his due, give God, his"?

Quote:
Yet, Jesus if born today will meet Pilate’s justice yet again. Barabbas is in power everywhere again. Judas the pretentious disciple and arch-betrayer is a subtle and slight presence practising diplomacy — the Cross in one hand and nuke bomb in the other. The terrorist incarnation today masquerades as the ruler of the earth.

For some Barabbas might have actually played a role in making "resurrection" possible. According to the Nag Hammadi library of papyri - the so-called Gospel of Judas indicates that Judas could have been the most favourite disciple who alone understood the "gnostic" teaching of Jesus and was instructed by Jesus to carry out the whole "betrayal" so that Jesus's "undying spirit" could be "released" from the prsion of his "physical body". He could have committed suicide to "join" his "friend/guide" or been "despatched" by other jealous/irate "disciples".

Quote:
Resurrection, not in the lexical or biblical sense, but in the grand moral dimension of the term conveying the spirit of trans-material mutation, is the structural splendour of the world order. Peace, not war; stability, not subservience; high morality, not any grab-based acquisitive success, is the new ethic.
Does the author reject the apocrypha?

Sorry! I do not think this article should at all have been quoted here! Its simply not worth it. :)


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2008 07:08 am
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Many of us went to catholic schools as they provided the best educaation in those days. however we never did understand the Bible or its history. however to show off our acquaintance we spout and quote selectively. So dont mind lekin, V.K. Iyer ji is doing the same. He doesnt know what he doesnt know.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2008 09:46 pm
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Bar-Abbas: Son of the King, in Aramaic.

Speculation exists that he was Jesus' own son (by Mary Magdalene)... spared to continue what was in fact a rival dynastic challenge to the Herodians. See "The Jesus Scroll" (Joyce, Donovan; DoubleDay 1973)


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2008 10:50 pm
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Ramanaji,
apologies for my outburst. I had expected much more from him. In a mixed setup of "missionaries" and "native" non-Christian teaching staff, my personal experience was that the "missionaries" were far better "teachers". They were more focused on identifying individual character and treat students as appropriate - they really appeared to "enjoy their job". I had horrible relations with my "native non-Christian" maths "gurus" (ironically my profession now!) and I still fondly remember my Anglo-Indian "language" gurus. This was the reason (among other early encounters with "ideologies") behind my early realization that it is wrong to characterize ideologies by indivdual's actions and this is why I still strongly urge "destruction of ideologies" rather than pick on "individuals", for by eliminating individuals we do not eliminate the root persistent driving factors - and I deeply regret so many "individuals" lost to pernicious "ideologies" I have seen.

Rudradev,

Yes, I meant this interpretation as well as reports that he could also have been called Jesus - a factor that has given rise to at least two conspiracy theories, one about "preplanned" resurrection and the other about deliberate "confusion" used by the Romans when "people" clamoured for pardoning Jesus.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 26 Dec 2008 03:59 am
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brihaspati, you may know more christianity than VKI.. in addition to ramana's note, add his age as well. he is in mid 90s


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2009 09:25 pm
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Kaushal wrote:



The Hisotry conf being organised by Kaushal garu is on from tomorrow: Jan 9, 2009.

I wish it all success!!!

Many BRF members contributed for it to happen.

ramana


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Post subject: Re: Indic perceptions of, and reactions to Islamic Extremism
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2009 04:06 pm
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Brihaspatiji, this may be off-topic, but there was a program on India (produced by BBC and I know what is their "position: about India) by one Michael Wood which peddled the AIT. They said that the "Aryans have not left much genetic markers yet they subjugated and imposed their ways of life on the indigeneous people etc etc". Gullible people will not see through the very sly use of words. Are there references about population genetics that actually debunk the AIT (now transformed into aryan "migration")? There is a strong conviction about migrations from Africa and they showed a person from Tamil Nadu who carried a particular gene (I think Y chromosome) similar to the remote Africans.


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Post subject: Re: Indic perceptions of, and reactions to Islamic Extremism
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2009 04:09 pm
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
sorry for continuing the OT angle.
This is a popular level article but contains adequate references to the 'expert' level articles that one can go through.
http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifa ... n-Invasion


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2009 06:20 pm
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updates from History Conf from India- Forum:

Quote:
Gods must be smiling upon the event as the weather in dillI was surprisingly favourable today with sun shining after more than a week of dreadful fog surrounding the indraprastha which was causing travel disruptions and cancelled trains and flights over last many days. Fortunately no such disruption.

The conf got inaugurated with a wonderful note by Prof Shivaji Singh who began his marvelous speech on the Shifting Paradigms of Indian historiography by singing a sUkta to vAgdevI. One of the clearest exposition I have heard.

BB Lal was absent as his wife met an unfortunate accident. his paper read in absentio.

Kaushal delivered his inaugural welcome speech, setting the tone for the rest of the day.

Elst bringing life to the sessions by asking questions loaded with typical Elstian wit. N Achar is subdued but of course present. we expect Kalyan to join shortly.

Now session is in process...


and

Quote:
There was Dr. Gunatilake from Sri Lanka who began by blaming Indian Govt for the misery in SL and RAW for assisting LTTE. Dr. Motvani in the chair of the session objected to this and the Sri Lankan speaker sat down, but Kaushal intervened and Elst persuaded him to continue. His paper itself was superb, bringing out clearly the macroscopic trend of Christo-Islamic jehad world-wide with special emphasys on Asia supported by some very meticulous statistics, and some entirely new eye-opening trends.

Special session on Geopolitics and History stole the limelight (and crowds) away from the parallel session on Transmission of Indic scientific traditions to the west in which number of speakers were apparently more than the listeners (but some good discussion was conducted in this session moderated by N Achar).

Geopolitics and History session was chaired by Nalpat, Uday Bhaskar, and Shivaji Singh. Some nice analysis but as the mercury was falling outside, so also the spirit. Scholars were near-unanimous that nothing is working well on Geopolitics front, and there was a sense of alarm in the end. Nalpat's convincing analysis showed that India itself might cease to exist in next 25 years, if situation is not radically modified. Shivaji Singh did his best to bring the mood back to optimistic with examples from history, but not succeeded completely.
A telugu brAhmaNa, a local temple priest joined towards the end, and speaking in saMskR^ita and hindI, made keen points that were overlooked by others.

and dinner is announced...


Hope we get updates from BRF members too!

Wish we there too!


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Post subject: Re: Indic perceptions of, and reactions to Islamic Extremism
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2009 01:49 am
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Abhi_Gji,
Rahul M has provided most of the technical references. Sanghamitra Sengupta/Sahoo et al provide the most up todate works based within Indian research. This is an important development we should all keep in touch with and track. It can also be an imprtant weapon in fighting ideologically not just AIT, but what is relevant for this thread, the TSP type propaganda.


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Post subject: Re: Indic perceptions of, and reactions to Islamic Extremism
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2009 02:21 am
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Our brothers and ancestors trapped in island:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlRSsvB4 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To0uOlO3KYU

AIT is now transformed into a more politically correct AMT and OIT is not given serious consideration yet, personally when I tried to learn Russian, I found many words that are similar to Sanskrit (Bangla Tatsama words), so I am not really sure which is the truth, someday people will figure it out, I think and we are probably not too far from that day.

There are thirteen parts to this video about y-chromosome transmission in humans. It shows how the Andaman/Nicobar tribes could be part of the tribes that came out of Africa around 60,000 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV6A8oGtPc4

I hope this is not off topic.


Last edited by AKalam on 10 Jan 2009 02:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2009 06:48 pm
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
there was a paper on the genetics/AIT debate published from IAS (Ind Ac of Sc) IIRC.
the findings were pro AIT. can anyone locate the paper ?
thanks.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2009 09:31 pm
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Kosla Vepa's International Conference on Indian History has got good coverage in the press. We held a press conference at Rajasthan House a couple of days before the event. It resulted in many news reports such as:

It was broadcast on Zee News:
http://www.zeenews.com/nation/2009-01-0 ... 5news.html

Hindu covered it too:

http://www.thehindu.com/2009/01/07/stor ... 780300.htm

So did Asian Age:
http://epaper.asianage.com/ASIAN/AAGE/2 ... tml?Mode=1

Some online media outlets covered it too:

http://www.kuwaitsamachar.com/index.php ... Itemid=276

Vepa's interview was telecast on Sahara Samay channel too.
------------------

The first day of the conference also generated some press:

http://www.hindu.com/2009/01/10/stories ... 760400.htm

http://www.thestatesman.net/page.arcvie ... &usrsess=1

http://www.indopia.in/India-usa-uk-news ... nal/1/20/1

http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articl ... 48707.html


This is from Statesman:

NEW DELHI, Jan. 9: A Sri Lankan scholar’s outburst against India at an international conference here today caused a stir. Mr Susantha Goonatilake, president of the Royal Asiatic Society of Sri Lanka, told the inaugural session of the three-day International Conference on Indian History, Civilisation and Geopolitics, 2009, that one of the reasons why the country had to deal with the LTTE problem for a long time was because “India had subverted Sri Lanka”. He added, “since I have been a friend of India, I say this with a feeling of hurt”.

http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.p ... &usrsess=1

Another report in Hindi in Dainik Jagaran:
http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/news/nationa ... 44663.html
-------------------------
Here is the first press release before the event that went to the press:

PRESS RELEASE

International Conference on Indian History, Civilization and Geopolitics 2009 (ICIH 2009) to be a landmark event in the interpretation of ancient Indian history

The three-day Conference to host over 100 distinguished scholars and historians from India and all over the world

Scholars to challenge many aspects of ancient India history as it is taught today and expose various myths that have been presented as facts by the Raj historians of the 19th century


New Delhi, January 6: Over 100 distinguished historians and scholars from India and abroad are gathering here for a three-day conference beginning January 9 which seeks to challenge many aspects of ancient Indian history as it is taught today and expose various myths including the Aryan Invasion Theory that have been presented as facts by the Raj historians of the 19th century.

The three-day International Conference on Indian History, Civilization and Geopolitics (ICIH 2009), organized by the US-based Indic Studies Foundation and the Akhila Bharatiya Itihasa Sankalana Yojana (ABISY) at the Indian International Centre, New Delhi, from January 9 to January 11, would also discuss India’s modern geo-political landscape and strategic affairs.

According to Kosla Vepa, Executive Director of the Indic Studies Foundation, “the purpose of the Conference is to decolonize various aspects of ancient Indian history and its chronology which were deliberately distorted and mis-dated during the British Raj with a view to cause confusion and a sense of inferiority among Indians. ICIH 2009 aims to contribute toward correcting this mangled historical narrative of the Indian civilization. Much of the ancient Indian history taught to our youth today has absolutely no basis in fact and is not supported by modern research. This is causing terrible cultural damage to our society and has to be set right urgently by taking a more rational view of the past.”

The Conference also aims to increase awareness of strategic thinking in India and to show that a strategic approach based on long-term objectives is essential to ensure a safe and secure future for the ancient Indian civilization and lead it to still greater heights, Vepa says.

Dr. Jagmohan (former Union Minister) will be the Guest of Honour at the inaugural session of the Conference. The inaugural address will be delivered by Prof. B.B. Lal (former DG, ASI) and Chaired by Prof. Shivaji Singh (Former HOD, Ancient History, Gorakhpur University).

The valedictory address will be delivered by Dr. Subramanian Swamy (former Union Minister) while Prof. J.S. Rajput (former Director, NCERT) will be the Guest of Honour.

The plenary sessions spread over three days will be divided into various categories dealing with subjects related to the main Conference theme of ‘Distortions in Indian History,’ such as:

• Geopolitics and civilization issues
• History chronological aspects
• The development of the arts, science and technology beginning in the ancient era and their possible transmission to the west
• The era of the ancients and the beginning of river valley civilizations
• Education of future leaders of the Indic people
• The era of conflicting paradigms (1000 CE to 17th century)
• The clash of civilizations
• The Indic renaissance (16th century to present)
• The age of colonization

The historians and scholars attending the conference will include internationally well-known names such as Bharat Karnad, P.C. Dogra, Kanwal Sibal, Uday Bhaskar, Rajeev Srinivasan, Tarun Vijay, J.S. Rajput, A.K. Mittal, K.N. Dixit, Bharat Gupt, Balram Singh, Bhudev Sharma, R.S. Bisht, Devendra Swaroop, S. Kalyanaraman, Madhav Nalapat, S.C. Mittal, G.T. Panse, K.C. Sharma, C.K. Raju, Shivaji Singh, T.R.N. Rao, Sharada Sugrthirajah, Shashi Tiwari, Susantha Goonatilake, Vibha Tripathi, Vikram Sood, Aruneshwar Gupta, Shashi Shekar Sharma and Leena Mehendale.

Many scholars from abroad will also be presenting their papers, such as Kyrillos Nikolau (Greece), Oleg Perzashkevich (Belarus), Yvette Rosser (USA), Susantha Goonatilake (Sri Lanka), Sharada Sugirthirajah (UK), Madan Lal Goel (USA), Bhu Dev Sharma (USA), Balram Singh (USA), Narhari Achar (USA), Jagat Motwani (USA), Mohan Gautam (Netherlands), Koenraad Elst (Belgium), Basudevlal Das (Nepal) and Kosla Vepa (USA).


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2009 11:14 pm
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Congratulations Kaushal. Keep fighting the good fight and more power to you :!:

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