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Rahul M	Post subject: Posted: 19 May 2008 11:04 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	gurus/guys/fellow BRFites, need info on the no horse in indus valley/brought in by Aryans=Proof of AIT theory. there is an archived thread with tit-bits but not much.
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Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 01:22 am
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	Fellow BRFites I have started my work on the Hindu History project started by Hindu Voice UK. To start off, there are many articles that need to be polished, given citations (if possible), and re-written to make them interesting and detailed (if BR can help out). These are the first five. If you have any information (preferably with a source) about these people, please contribute. 1) Baji Prabhu Deshpande (famous soldier under Shivaji, died in Pavan Khind) http://tinyurl.com/4vxskl 2) Rana Sanga http://tinyurl.com/48fr6c 3) Chandrashekhar Azad http://tinyurl.com/4dvcxc 4) Sister Nivedita http://tinyurl.com/4ntkdf 5) Birsa Munda (this one is especially unknown to me. I have never heard of this person before). http://tinyurl.com/3okk9s
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csharma	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 01:34 am
BRFite Joined: 12 Jul 1999 06:01 am Posts: 181	Keshav, Birsa Munda was a tribal leader who had fought against the British. Area of actvity was Jharkhand and adjoining tribal areas in Orissa. http://orissagov.nic.in/e-magazine/Oris ... s14-15.pdf
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csaurabh	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 04:31 am
BRFite -Trainee Joined: 07 Apr 2008 09:37 am Posts: 4	I lived near an area called Birsanagar in Jamshedpur, he is especially renowned there. And your font for Birsa Munda's page is very large. (occasional lurker btw)
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Rahul M	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 09:13 am
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	gurus, this is really a bit urgent. Was there horse in India during IVC ?? Is the Indian horse genetically different from the central asian one ?? Please help me on this one. (I am writing an article refuting AIT in a bengali journal)
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Inder Sharma	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 09:26 am
BRFite -Trainee Joined: 18 May 2006 09:05 am Posts: 18	Rahul M wrote: gurus, this is really a bit urgent. Was there horse in India during IVC ?? Is the Indian horse genetically different from the central asian one ?? Please help me on this one. (I am writing an article refuting AIT in a bengali journal) Rahul, have you checked this. I guess this would be all that is necessary. http://voi.org/books/ait/ch44.htm
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ashish raval	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 09:28 am
BRFite Joined: 09 Aug 2006 07:19 pm Posts: 264 Location: London	Rahul M wrote: gurus, this is really a bit urgent. Was there horse in India during IVC ?? Is the Indian horse genetically different from the central asian one ?? Please help me on this one. (I am writing an article refuting AIT in a bengali journal) Some info can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhimbetka_rock_shelters http://voi.org/books/ait/ch44.htm
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Sanku	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 09:30 am
BRFite Joined: 23 Aug 2007 10:27 am Posts: 1523 Location: Naaahhhh	Rahul M wrote: gurus, this is really a bit urgent. Was there horse in India during IVC ?? Is the Indian horse genetically different from the central asian one ?? Lal et al have claimed to have found horse remains. Its quite possible these were horses; but the mainstream has just refused to even consider the evidence before refuting it. They prefer to refute the entire exercise as RSS brand fabrication. links http://www.geocities.com/ifihhome/articles/bbl002.html http://www.india-today.com/itoday/26011998/indus.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_horse_in_South_Asia
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Rahul M	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 10:43 am
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	thanks a lot guys !!
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sanjaychoudhry	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 11:15 am
BRFite Joined: 12 Jul 2007 07:09 pm Posts: 556 Location: La La Land	Rahul M wrote: gurus, this is really a bit urgent. Was there horse in India during IVC ?? Is the Indian horse genetically different from the central asian one ?? Please help me on this one. (I am writing an article refuting AIT in a bengali journal) Rahul Birader, instead of refuting the Aryan Invasion Theory, it is much better to propagate the correct theory that Aryans migrated from Indus Valley to Europe. Actually, when the Saraswati river dried, the Indus Valley people dispersed in all directions. One branch went further east and settled along the Ganges river. The other branch went Westward toward Iran and Sumeria. They carried their culture and stories with them. This theory of "Aryans migrated to Europe from Indus Valley" solves all problems and everything falls into place. Ancient Indians went from India to Europe and seeded their civilisation. That is why the ancient language spoken by druids (still spoken in some parts of Ireland) has 200 Sanskrit words and that is why the stories of Illiad and Odyssey of Greeks are similar to Ramayana and Mahabharata. The migration definitely happened. It cannot be denied. Denying it will be self-defeating because there is too much similarity between ancient European culture and that of the Hindus. However, the dispute is whether the Aryans came into India from Europe or did they went from India to Europe. Everything falls into place if you claim the latter case. The word Iran is a corruption of the word Aryan, and it is still taught in Iran's school text books that Aryans came from India!! Ancient Iranian kings have Hindu names!! The people migrated further to Iraq and Europe. Did you know that Abraham, the Biblical figure, was born in Iraq and migrated Westwards? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham#Origins_and_calling This is how our culture spread to Europe. The ancient Druidic religion that was spread all over Europe before Christianity had many similarities with Hinduism such as sacred groves, Sun worship and ritual river bathing. The word Druid is derived from the Sanskrit word Dravid ("immersed in knowledge"). The most popular Roman God of soldiers was Mithras that was nothing but the Hindu Vedic diety of Mitra. Quote: The Roman army first encountered the cult of Mithras in Persia (modern Iran) during the reign of the emperor Nero although its origins in India have been traced back to 1400 BC. One of the many mystery cults that the Romans introduced from the east, Mithraism first appealed to slaves and freedmen but with Mithras's title Invictus, the cult's emphasis on truth, honour and courage, and its demand for discipline soon led to Mithras becoming a god of soldiers and traders. http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/mithras/text.htm An ancient Vishnu idol has been unearthed in Russia recently. Quote: During an excavation in an abandoned village in the Volga region, archaeologist Alexander Kozhevin excavated an ancient Vishnu idol. The idol dates from between the seventh and tenth centuries AD. Prior to this discovery, Kozhevin has already unearthed ancient coins, pendants, rings and weapon fragments. The village, Staraya Maina, had been a dense population center approximately 1700 years ago. The Times of India reported that this discovery raised questions about the prevalent view of the origin of ancient Russia. In an interview Kozhevin stated that, "We may consider it incredible, but we have ground to assert that Middle-Volga region was the original land of Ancient Rus. This is a hypothesis, but a hypothesis, which requires thorough research http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Russia Our culture has been transmitted to Europe for thousands of years. There are many quotes of ancient Greek philosophers speaking about their debt to India's Brahmins. When Alexander came to India, Aristotle asked him to get him an Indian philosopher as a gift. Ancient Europe was actively looking to acquire wisdom, philosophy and culture from India. The Aryans went from India to Europe. This is the theory that Indians should propagate in response to the mischevious AIT theory. The Goras will ask you: "What is your proof that Aryans went from India to Europe and not the other way round?" You should answer: "And what is your proof that Aryans came to India from Europe and not the other way round? Indian civlisation has always influenced all countries lying to the West such as the Druidic religion, the cult of Mithras and the Hindu numerals that the Arabs copied and passed on to Europe. Can you in turn name a single thing that came to India from the West in ancient times?"
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Rahul M	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 12:19 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	sanjay, I'm aware of most of the points you have raised. in fact I feel this link gives more scientific evidence to that end. link But still, the evidence is not conclusive. It would have to wait further research and more importantly a change in the mindset. Remember, this is bengal I'm talking about. The educated bengali elite has probably the highest percentage of maculytes in modern India. If you had been aware of the amount of opposition I face when countering just AIT, you won't have advised this !! Anyway, I intend to end the article with a few tantalising hints/theories, one of them being Ashoka's buddhist missionaries to the ME (which were likely) influencing one certain person !!
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Rahul M	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 01:18 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	Quote: 5) Birsa Munda (this one is especially unknown to me. I have never heard of this person before). http://tinyurl.com/3okk9s 9. Are Indian tribals Hindus? Quote: Birsa Munda, whose Munda rebellion started with attacks on mission posts in 1899, claimed to have visions after the mode of the Biblical prophets, but told his flock to give up animal sacrifice, witchcraft and intoxication and to wear the sacred thread, all amounting to a kind of self-sanskritization. http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/b ... ah/ch9.htm
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Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 08:53 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	Koenraad Elst doesn't really give much information about "Biblical prophecies" and what that means in Hinduism, seeing as there is already quite a bit of variation, there are bound to be overlaps somewhere so it seems silly to make the comparison with Christianity. Either way, thanks for the information.
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Rahul M	Post subject: Posted: 20 May 2008 09:04 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	http://rrtd.nic.in/Birsa.html http://www.jharkhandgov.in/birsamunda.htm http://joharadivasi.org/birsa-munda/
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surinder	Post subject: Posted: 21 May 2008 03:13 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 457 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Kaushal wrote: Quote: By the way, is there a one complete book on the British atrocities in India? Obviously not. The british would have banned it in a jiffy... .Now there are not a lot of people knowledgeable on the topic. It would b e a very large book Kaushal, that is true. But after independence, it would seem that such a consolidated book would be most usefull and least politically risky. What I have in mind is that when we read Indian history, say about British wars with Sikhs, or British control of Kashmir, or British dealings with Bhagat Singh or other revolutionaries, or about Clive, or about British loot in Madras, we infer things about their cruelties. I would really want to get a book that collects all the British atrocities and puts them out for us to see. Not as part of another narrative, but a narrative in itself. That is Book, that would do great service to India. Maybe Kaushal you should write it, or maybe some one else on BRF. For instance, consider the book on British atrocities in Kenya: http://books.google.com/books?id=yOPyA-vErBsC The meticulously compiled list of atrocities are a chilling read.
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ShauryaT	Post subject: Posted: 21 May 2008 06:30 pm
BRFite Joined: 31 Oct 2005 12:36 am Posts: 936	Rahul - I will have to dig for sources but this debate about the Indian horse has come up. The "nationalist" histortians claim that the horse was always there but the local breed was a bit inferior for war fighting qualities, as compared to the central asian ones. The genetics debate around this cannot be resolved easily, due to the contiguous nature of the land mass of the sub continent with Central Asia, in the migration of people and horses!
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ShauryaT	Post subject: Posted: 21 May 2008 06:32 pm
BRFite Joined: 31 Oct 2005 12:36 am Posts: 936	Rahul M wrote: Quote: 5) Birsa Munda (this one is especially unknown to me. I have never heard of this person before). http://tinyurl.com/3okk9s 9. Are Indian tribals Hindus? Lal's, Growth of SC and ST in India, is instructive to answer the general query, above.
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Rahul M	Post subject: Posted: 21 May 2008 08:09 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	Quote: 9. Are Indian tribals Hindus? ShauryaT, that is the title of chapter 9 of the book 'who is a hindu' by Koenraad Elst, not a question I asked !! I haven't read Lal's book but Elst's book is also pretty good in this respect. Is Lal's book available on the net ?? Regarding the horse question, I found Ashis Raval's bhimbetka link very illuminating. 9000 BC and people were riding horses. Somebody should send it to Koenraad Elst !!
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Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 21 May 2008 10:28 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	Thanks to Rahul M and csharma for information about Birsa Munda. More information, however, is required (sources preferred, please) about the rest of the characters: 1) Baji Prabhu Deshpande (famous soldier under Shivaji, died in Pavan Khind) http://tinyurl.com/4vxskl 2) Rana Sanga http://tinyurl.com/48fr6c 3) Chandrashekhar Azad http://tinyurl.com/4dvcxc 4) Sister Nivedita http://tinyurl.com/4ntkdf Information on Baji Prabhu and Azad is hard to find. In fact, Indian history in general is pretty hard to find.
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csharma	Post subject: Posted: 22 May 2008 04:08 am
BRFite Joined: 12 Jul 1999 06:01 am Posts: 181	Keshav, There is a book on Baji Prabhu Deshpande . Search google books. The book may not be available right now. There are also some webpages. http://books.google.com/books?id=D8LEGw ... +Deshpande If you really want to go deep, it might be a good idea to get into touch with a nationalist history professor in Maharashtra.
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Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 22 May 2008 09:02 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	csharma- For some reason, that book isn't showing up. I suppose I'll have to find other sites for that information. Thanks again for your interest in the project. See if you can enlist other BRFites! For example, I know Airavat is an itihaas guru.
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Abhijit	Post subject: Posted: 22 May 2008 09:59 pm
BRFite Joined: 15 Mar 2002 07:01 am Posts: 148 Location: Bay Area - US	There was a Marathi book called 'Agniputra' by Vasant Potdar (i am trying to recollect from my childhood). This book was a definitive history on HSRA - Hindustan Socialist Republican Army (The HRA was renamed HSRA by Azad and Co). The author was the younger brother of one of the HSRA members (iirc). I think the publication was 'rajhans Prakashan' of Pune. This book contained the biographies of all the HSRA members, starting with Chandrashekhar Azad, including Bhagvaticharan Vora, Durgabhabhi Vora, Jatin Das, Bhagat Singh, Rajguru, Sukhdev, Vijay Sinha and many others. This book made me the patriot (If I can arrogate such an adjective to myself) that I am. Absolutely beautifully written biographies. If somebody can find it, will be grateful to buy it.
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vsudhir	Post subject: Posted: 24 May 2008 01:46 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 18 Jan 2006 10:14 pm Posts: 2178 Location: Dark side of the moon	The Last Samrat of Bhaarath Good read.
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ShauryaT	Post subject: Posted: 24 May 2008 02:30 pm
BRFite Joined: 31 Oct 2005 12:36 am Posts: 936	Rahul M wrote: I haven't read Lal's book but Elst's book is also pretty good in this respect. Is Lal's book available on the net ?? Do not know, I am not the most efficient, when it comes to the net. I trek all the way to Dariya Ganj to buy these books.
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Rahul M	Post subject: Posted: 24 May 2008 03:45 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	Shaurya, could you kindly provide me with complete names of the books and the publishers ?? If it is available on the net, I should be able to get it !!
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ramana	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 03:53 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 7269	Need to re-look at Indian history of the Mughal period from Akbar onwards to Bahadur Shah Zafar and compare and contrast that to the previous Sultanate era. We need to look at the total picture and not just what was handed over by the greats of NCERT. The Muslim-Hindu relations, art, culture, trade, economy, status of agriculture in sum the whol gamut of factors that form the civilization of that period.
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Keshav	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 06:08 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	The Mughals did not begin with Akbar, as I'm sure you know. Humayun was thrown out of India by Sher Shah (Kahn) and before that Babur defeated Rana Sanga and Ibraham Lodi of the Delhi Sultanate. It is worth extending the chronology further to understand all the influences. Sher Shah is someone I'd like to get the full picture on. Amar Chitra Katha paints him as pretty progressive and even Akbar was inspired by him and used many of his ideas, land reforms and continued the "rupee".
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indygill	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 07:14 pm
BRFite -Trainee Joined: 24 Aug 2007 12:23 pm Posts: 86	LINK Khusro Khan – A Hindu convert briefly overthrows the Khilji dynasty in 1320 - And what was a shock to the whole of India, especially to the Muslims occupying Delhi was that Khusro declared himself to be a Hindu again!! When he ascended the throne In the early 14th century (1312) Gujarat was overrun by the Muslim tyrants of who had a century earlier occupied Delhi. As was customary, the Muslims slaughtered countless Hindu victims after every victory. They also carried off many beautiful women and handsome young man as captives, to be used as sex slaves. One such handsome child was Khusro Khan. This was not his original name when he was carried off as a prisoner at the age of eleven. Even at that tender age, he had chiseled features and was fair complexioned. He belonged to the Makwana sub-caste of North Gujarat. As was the custom, all captives were forcibly converted to Islam and brought up as slaves. After nearly fifteen years in captivity Khusro Khan forgot what his original name was. He only faintly recollected that he had a different childhood which he shared with the other captives from Gujarat. His stunning features and fair complexion evoked the perverted lust of his captor Sultan Allaudin Khilji’s perverted son, Qutbuddin Mubarak Khalji. He like his more notorious father Alauddin Khalji, were in love with their young male slaves. Qutbuddin Mubarak had a particular fondness for his slave Khusro Khan and as a teenager, Khusro was sexually abused by Qutbuddin Mubarak for eight years. Khusro seethed for revenge against this barbarity that robbed him of his childhood and early youth. In 1320, Qutbuddin murdered his ageing father Allaudin and crowned himself emperor. By then Khushro had acquired a position of influence over Qutbuddin. Khusro had also used this influence to gather other captives like him and had arm them to make up Qutbuddin’s bodyguard. Khusro often wanted to put a sword through the Sultan and kill him while he was doing the immoral act of publicly kissing him. All through his teens, Khusro was forced to publicly offer his body to the Sultan like a prostitute. He did this apparent cheer, but within himself he was seething with rage and had been choking up with a desire for revenge at the way the Sultan forced himself upon him and took advantage of him. During the struggle for power in 1320 when Qutbuddin murdered his ageing father, Khusro got his chance. Qutbuddin had put his trust in his partner in perverted sex, Khusro and put him in charge of guarding his royal quarters. Qutbuddin Mubarak excluded all his father’s men from important duties in the palace and the army. Taking advantage of his position and the general resentment for Qutbuddin, Khusro murdered Qutbuddin Mubarak Khilji, and crowned himself king and assumed the title Khusro Khan. And what was a shock to the whole of India, especially to the Muslims occupying Delhi was that Khusro declared himself to be a Hindu again!! When he ascended the throne, Khusro Khan was only nineteen years of age. The Muslim nobility was shell-shocked, but with the strong contigent of Gujarati converts around Khusro Khan, they were momentarily stunned into inaction. However, they began plotting the overthrow of Khusro Khan – who in their eyes was a Murtad who had abjured Islam. Eventually, after a year, a Muslim General Ghazi Malik (who later took on the title Giyasuddin Tughlak) murdered Khusro and re-established the rule of Muslims in Delhi. After a brief interlude of Hindu rule, Ghazi Malik founded the Tughluq dynasty. But this event proved that if the Hindus had the determination grit and shrewdness, they could overturn Muslim rule in India. A dream that was to be realized later by the Marathas when they marched in to Delhi in 1720.
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astal	Post subject: British Atrocities in India Posted: 29 May 2008 07:44 pm
BRFite -Trainee Joined: 06 Jul 2005 09:36 pm Posts: 12 Location: always in school.	I was reading up for a project on colonial legacies and came across this report on the Jallian Wala bagh massacre from Reginald Dyer to his superiors. (April 1919) "There was no reason to further parley with the mob; evidently they were there to defy the arm of the law. The responsibility was very great. If I fired I must fire with good effect, a small amount of firing would be a criminal act of folly. I had the choice of carrying out a very distasteful and horrible duty, or neglecting to do my duty, of suppressing disorder or of become responsible for all future bloodshed. We cannot be brave unless we be possessed of a greater fear. I had considered the matter from every point of view. My duty and my military instincts told me to fire. My conscience was also clear at that point. What faced me was what on the morrow would be the Danda Fauj. I fired and continued to fire until the crowd dispersed and I consider this the least amount of firing which would produce necessary moral and widespread it was my duty to produce, if I was to justify my action. If more troops had been at hand at the time the casualties would have been greater in proportion. It was no longer a question of merely dispersing the crowd, but one of producing a sufficient moral effect, from a military point of view. , not only on those who were present but more specially throughout the Punjab. There could be no question of undue severity." (source: Bonnie G. Smith; Imperialism, A History in Documents (2000), Oxford University Press.) A collection of British atrocities is very necessary. Otherwise our young generations will think that the current state of India is no better than, or even worse than British rule. This is a view commonly held by many historians today. In economic history where I have had a chance to interact with some of the "brightest in the field", so strong is the view that India benefited overall from British rule and is perhaps worse off now, that one is hard pressed to find a contrary view in the mainstream. This without any counter factual and only superficial or colored knowledge of the history of India.
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indygill	Post subject: Re: British Atrocities in India Posted: 29 May 2008 07:55 pm
BRFite -Trainee Joined: 24 Aug 2007 12:23 pm Posts: 86	astal wrote: In economic history where I have had a chance to interact with some of the "brightest in the field", so strong is the view that India benefited overall from British rule and is perhaps worse off now, that one is hard pressed to find a contrary view in the mainstream. This without any counter factual and only superficial or colored knowledge of the history of India. If I am not wrong didn't Indian PM Manmohan Singh publically propagated and shared the same sentiments during London visit!!!!!!! And if I am not mistakened he publically thanked the British for their projects and efforts in India!!!!
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ramana	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 08:03 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 7269	Keshav wrote: The Mughals did not begin with Akbar, as I'm sure you know. Humayun was thrown out of India by Sher Shah (Kahn) and before that Babur defeated Rana Sanga and Ibraham Lodi of the Delhi Sultanate. It is worth extending the chronology further to understand all the influences. Sher Shah is someone I'd like to get the full picture on. Amar Chitra Katha paints him as pretty progressive and even Akbar was inspired by him and used many of his ideas, land reforms and continued the "rupee". The earlier two rulers were really Chagatai Sultans of Delhi. The real Mughal Empire or Shahi began with Akbar. And if you read my post I do ask to take a look at the two periods. Sher Shahi Suri depite his innovations was unable to prpogate a dynasty and ended up as one ruler dynasty. My point is Mugahl were not the same as early Islamic rulers however capable they others were.
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VikasRaina	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 08:19 pm
BRFite Joined: 02 Dec 2005 09:10 pm Posts: 231 Location: Hawai	What is the real history of India during the Muslim Period ? There was Hemu and now there is Khusro Khan and then there were marahthas.God knows how many skeletons are there in the cupboard ? How does someone like me who cliamed to know history pretty well suddenly realises that this is not what happened ? I know that some history existed outside the commie written history books but how much. We were not solely a nation of losers since 1191.So the bigger question is , if there is a way to propagate real history among Indians and whose narrative would qualify as real history if we leave behind the labels of Commie, liberal,psudo-secular and nationalists. Last edited by VikasRaina on 29 May 2008 08:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gandharva	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 08:29 pm
BRFite Joined: 30 Jan 2008 05:52 pm Posts: 159	Quote: so strong is the view that India benefited overall from British rule and is perhaps worse off now, that one is hard pressed to find a contrary view in the mainstream. Following Graph in Goldman sach report On India shows the real facts. Source page 4 http://www.usindiafriendship.net/viewpo ... ential.pdf Last edited by gandharva on 29 May 2008 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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satyarthi	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 08:45 pm
BRFite Joined: 21 Aug 2006 03:20 am Posts: 179	This figure needs to be part of India's textbooks. Broadly speaking, Indian economy was 3 times Europe's economy till about 1000AD. Thats about when Muslim invasions started. Muslim rule in Delhi (Sultanate) started in 1206. Indian economy shows a steady decline lasting all through the sultanate years. But shows an upturn during the Mughal times from Jahangir (1605) to Aurangzeb (1707). But the steepest fall comes when British rule started. Q: What happened in 1000AD so that Europe and China started rising. Or was it only because India started falling due to Muslim rule that Europe's and China's percentages grew? Can someone email this figure to Dr. Man Mohan Singh? Last edited by satyarthi on 29 May 2008 08:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ramana	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 08:54 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 7269	X-Posted from India Forum... dhu wrote: Aryan invasion story 'a western myth' Quote: CHICAGO: An eminent Indologist and a visiting professor at the University of Houston, Dr Pramod Pathak has challenged the basis of age old theory perpetrated by Western scholars about the invasion by Aryans in India and of driving the Dasuys South ward.Talking to the media in Chicago, Dr Pathak said that his study and research revealed that the Aryan invasion theory is a myth and it is perpetuated by the English scholars from the time of their invasion of India in the 17th century.The British regime fabricated the history of India to suit their motive to establish and perpetuate their political, social and religions institutions in India. They would succeed in their nefarious game because they had both the political power and opportunity to misguide the Indian people. It is now an accepted historical fact that Max Muller promoted the invasion theory and accordingly formulated the dates of Vedic origin and the differences in Aryan and Dravidian cultures so that English rulers could divide the societies bringing out the issues of race and color.Max Muller, according to historians was a British employee, specially appointed to rewrite the history of India. This becomes obvious as one refers to Lord McCauley, who wrote that in order to perpetuate the English rule and institutions in India they should "produce such a group of people, who would be Indian in blood and color, but English in taste, opinion and intellect."Explaining the genesis of the subject, he said that when he was working for his Ph.D. thesis he came across the hymn II.34 in the Atharva Veda in praise of the God Pashupati. It praises the Lord of beasts - Pashupati, who historians later considered as the master of quadruped and bipeds. He immediately correlated it with the famous Pashupati seal form the Indus Culture and presented a paper in the Archaeological conference, which was well received. It appeared that the seal was pictorial representation of the AV hymn II.34. It led him to consider the possibility that followers of Atharva Veda were part of the Indus culture. Dwelling further on this aspect he continued to observe that in the Rigveda there were conflicting entities, namely Aryans and Dasas. Rig-Vedic hymns describe that Indra destroyed ninety-nine "pur"s of Dasas. These "pur"s are described as "ayasi" i.e. metallic.According to the current and prevailing views, Aryans invaded India, destroyed the culture there and established their hegemony. Their main enemies were the "Dasa" people. Dr Pathak said, "I had the opportunity to study the Indo-Iranian texts. These texts mention people called "Daha", "Dahae" or Dasa. These Daha people belonged to the southern part of Iran. I then came across references to the tribe called "Dahamarda" staying in the Seistan province of Afghanistan. Their villages were named as "Deh" i.e. "Desha" and name of one village was "Dah bashi Deh". It is fully Sanskrit origin name i.e. "Dasa Bhashi Desha". It raised doubts as to whether the enemies of the Aryans were in India or in South Afghanistan. Further studies in the environment of Afghanistan revealed that very intense winds blow in Afghanistan for four months. These are known as "Bad-isad-o-bist". According to some Iranian sources this name is of Sanskrit origin. "Bad" is "Vata" i.e. wind, " Sad" is Shata and "bista" is "vimshati" i.e. twenty. All that meant winds of hundred and twenty days i.e. exactly the four months. These winds have resulted in great erosion of the landscape in the deserts of central and south western Afghanistan and created thousands of small circular butts or hillocks formed due to wind erosion. These are capped with stone cover of red stones, called Suhr-da-Gall i.e. red earth in local language. There was an excellent paper by Wilhelm Rau "Meaning of Purs in the Vedic literature". He concluded that Vedic "Pur"s do not represent well laid cities of Indus but were temporary shelters made of stones. All this information fitted so well to confirm that Dasas of the Rig-Vedic lore were the people from Seistan, Afghanistan. Their temporary bastions were the "Pur"s destroyed by Indra as mentioned the Vedas. These evidences greatly changed my opinion, which I had learnt as a student and even after. So the idea that Aryans invaded India and enslaved local people, whom they called Dravidians were definitely preplanned and perpetrated on the Indian subjects by the British rulers with ulterior motives of advancing their interest of promoting their own religious and educational values, said Dr Pramod Pathak. Dr Pathak is a Visiting Professor at the University of Houston and conducted courses on History and Culture of India. He is the founder member of the Mahatma Gandhi Library at Houston and invited lecturer at the interfaith meets and Unity Church at Houston. He has written eight books and several research articles on the Vedic and Ideological topics and on Ramayana. He is an expert on the Indus culture seals and has given interpretations of these.He studied the history of Ancient Afghanistan and wrote a book "The Afghan Connection" based on these studies. It deals with pre-Buddhist ethno-archaeology of Afghanistan. The idea that Sanskrit was an alien language and a Central Asian Race (Aryan) invaded India and brought with them their language, Sanskrit was promoted by Western scholars in order to show that Aryans were also invaders like Greeks, Huns, Arabs, Mughals and later English and Europeans. They wanted to deny that India from time immemorial was called, "Aryavart". Its inhabitants were called Aryas and the ancient borders of India extended up to Iran. So the ancient Iranians continue to called themselves as Aryans. The details of these and many other findings on the Vedic entities are to be found in his book, "The Afghan Connection". Surendra Ullal
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Rahul M	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 09:02 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	gandharva, link please ! I'm aware of maddison and his work, having used it in an article but nothing about this goldman sachs business is known to me.
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VikasRaina	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 09:09 pm
BRFite Joined: 02 Dec 2005 09:10 pm Posts: 231 Location: Hawai	The rise of Europe coincides with renaissance period.
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surinder	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 09:52 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 457 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Recently a spate of books have come out chronicling the British Raj, mostly written by Britishers. British are masters of creating sophisticated arguments, which hide more than they reveal, while seeming to be very fair and balanced. Books seem very well balanced and seem candid about British role in India, but they use an appearance of fairness to hide the murky stuff. I was particularly piqued at one book: it posed the question in earnestness at the outset: "Was the British rule good stewardship of India or Bad management?" I am surprised that they would bracket the raj in these two extremees. Well, the answer is neither. It was a rape and a crime against humanity. The questio posed is a slap. On the other hand, I am sorry that Indians have done no better: (1) They have failed to produce good level of books (scholarly & general interest) to keep control of the message. (2) They haven't produced one thorough encyclopedia of British atrocities. (3) They haven't produced research on numbers (Indian economy, number of killed in wars, numbers died in starvation) that would damn the British. (4) Have put in more energy in putting down other communities in India. Using British attitudes and pronouncements more Indians have damned each other than the British. (5) Have failed to learn the British techniques and use them effectively. One exception, recently, was Mishra's book on 1857. He gave numbers (for the first time) of Indians killed by British reprisals. That number went into millions and it made people take notice. Although he is the JNU jholowala to the boot. One possible thing we can do is to make a Wikipedia project of (a dedicated web site) to document British atrocities.
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Rahul M	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 10:39 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	the wikipedia idea is an excellent one, surinder ! this one gives some solid referrences. http://www.thehindu.com/2005/12/28/stor ... 961100.htm Harper's Weekly http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/697876789 Dalrymple's book too provides ample resources albeit in a limited theatre. another excellent resource. denial and something that gives the official view on the matter by the brits. http://www.learningcurve.gov.uk/empire/ ... ground.htm
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gandharva	Post subject: Posted: 29 May 2008 10:48 pm
BRFite Joined: 30 Jan 2008 05:52 pm Posts: 159	Quote: gandharva, link please ! I edited my post with link update as requested by you.