Tuesday, August 18, 2009

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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2009 11:09 pm
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Update on my explorations in the mega-drought angle and it seffects on Indian history:

There is some expected difference between NW Arabian sea, and SE Arabian sea Monsoon records. The Oman Qunf cave and Dandak Cave speleotherm data give slightly different patterns. So I am tentatively suggesting the following dates to consider (this is after tallying with other palaeoclimate sources for precipitation and aridity) :

677-728 C.E with a particularly dry period from 690 to 715 C.E. (possibly start of a 1470 year global cycle)
804
850-870 C.E (this was also a global drought) - (possibly peak/end part of a 1470 year global cycle).
890-900
990-1028
1086
1384 (severe drought globally centred around this date)

I see a very wet period around Ghurid invasion. So the drought factor cannot be used for this. However the Sindhi raids distinctly appear successful only after decadal length aridity. Mahmud's raids also appear in a dry period. The last date in the list coincides with the beginning of the end for the Delhi Sultanate.

More on this later. Readers can look into the dates for historical events.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2009 12:52 am
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brihaspati wrote:
Airavatji,
I thought I had already disengaged. I guess you are the type who will go at the person rather than his ideas. :D Just because Muhammad Habib was the father of Irfan Habib doesn't make him automatically a founder of the Thaparite School of Indian history.


Brihaspati, I went after your source, Mohammad Habib, and not you.

Quote:
I am very much aware of R.C.Majumdar, or Jadunath Sarkar's works, and their criticism at the hands of Thaparites. I do not simply study modern historians but also try to read up narrative texts they use or their translations.

I go for logic, data, and I do not believe in stopping at any level of understanding. I go as far as looking up sources as possible, and not stop only at a particular historian's understanding. When I want to read up on sea-trade I would look up not only Indian sources but also Chinese and Arab and Ceylonese sources. In studying Islamic invasions I studied Persian originals for some of these chronicles whose translations are not available in full.


And after all this impressive studying you made the following claims and asked these questions (all quoted from your previous posts):

Quote:
Up to the 7th century, historians find and report that the Indian empires had powerful navies and merchant fleet, with an active interest taken by the highly organized state administrations in the maintenance, development, and deployment of fleets of ships both for military and commercial purpose...

We also have observations from Chinese and other sources that Indian shipping had fallen behind by this time, where Arabs, Chinese and Srri Lanka dominated. If Arabs and Sri Lanka could dominate the sea-lanes why couldnt Indian powers do so?

what prevented aggressive foreign policy to destroy the economic foundations of the Caliphate by disrupting trade on the Arabian sea and blockading the Gulf?


The second statement is truly hilarious and so excuse me while I :rotfl: because you yourself admit that "Indian shipping had fallen behind" but then you go on to ask why Indian powers couldn't dominate the sea-lanes?

This statement is also funny because while you angrily imply that Indian powers did not dominate the sea-lanes, and that Indian empires had powerful fleets up to the 7th century, you have shockingly missed listing the greatest naval achievement in Indian History (slow drum roll):

THE MIGHTY CHOLAS

I know it's only wikipedia but the sources are listed and it has very interesting maps as well. But that's beside the point.......here's the list of their naval campaigns:

The destruction of the Bali fleet (1148CE)
Sea battle of the Kalinga Campaign (1081CE-1083CE)
The second expedition of Sri Vijaya (1031CE-1034CE)
The first expedition of Sri Vijaya (1027CE -1029CE)
The Annexation of Kedah (1024-1025 CE)
Annexation of the Kamboja (?-996CE)
The invasion of Ceylon/Sri Lanka.(977CE-?)

For a person with all your "extensive" reading you didn't even mention the Cholas in all your previous posts....simply shocking! You ended Indian naval capability in the 7th century while the greatest Indian naval achievements were by the Cholas from the 10th to the 12th centuries.

While you claim to have read original Persian sources; I think its time you also read original Tamil sources to increase your knowledge on Indian naval capability. And then answer your own questions on if the Cholas clashed with the Arabs, whose naval influence in this same period, extended to South India, and beyond to South-East Asia.

From the article on the Chola Navy: "Rajaraja commissioned various foreigners (Prominently, the Arabs and Chinese) in the naval building program."

....and further "the Arabs, on whom the Cholas were dependent for horses for their cavalry corps."


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2009 01:27 am
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Quote:
For a person with all your "extensive" reading you didn't even mention the Cholas in all your previous posts....simply shocking! You ended Indian naval capability in the 7th century while the greatest Indian naval achievements were by the Cholas from the 10th to the 12th centuries.


I am not picking on anyone but may be that post partition punjabi consciousness where India means North India.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2009 02:41 am
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Cholas did not come into my discussion, because we do not have many references of the Cholas displacing Arabs in the Arabian Sea trade - we were discussing Arabs and their dominance of trade between Indian west coast and further west. The Chola dominance was to the eastern Indian Ocean primarily. Moreover I repeatedly tried to draw attention to the apparent Arab capability to mount naval operations as part of their campaigns against India in th eearly part of their exapansion - while we do not have reports of similar campaigns being mounted in the opposite direction by Indian forces - and we are talking about the 700's.

I did mean your going after M. Habib. I didn't even realize that you could have thought of going after me! :D

It is not a funny question to ask why Indian powers did not dominate the Arabian sea, if I mention that there are some opinions that Indian shipping had fallen behind. The two are related to the fundamental question of why - why did ship quality fall behind and what were the Indian powers doing in not realizing the dangers of allowing it to fall behind. As you yourself point out, a single factor is not necessarily enough, and there could be more than one factor behind it.

I guess, part of the difference that we are having is because I am looking for broad strategic factors - the human decision making part, if any, behind the retreat of Indian power from western Indian Ocean and from west of India on land, while you are focusing on specific confrontations that encompass all details specific to that confrontation. Purely material, circumstantial and technological factors alone .cannot by themselves explain the retreat - this is my viewpoint. Your views are apparently different, so I disengaged. :D

And probably it may be wiser in the future not to assume regional stereotypes - what if I really know some Tamil :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2009 03:45 am
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From dailypioneer.com:

The purpose of history

Quote:
Chandan Mitra

Sikandar ne Porus
Se kee thhi ladai
Jo kee thhi ladai
To main kya karoon?

I wonder how many in GenNow would recall this humourous number that used to be a Vividh Bharati regular in my student days. The song became popular because schoolchildren dreaded history since the only apparent way to score in the paper was to commit names and dates to memory.

I never learnt much about Alexander’s epic battle with Pururaj, the valiant Indian king till I read Dwijendra Lal Roy’s racy novel and later saw Sikandar-e-Azam, the film that showed Porus going into battle on elephant back singing Jahan daal-daal par sone ki chidiya karti hain basera/ Woh Bharat desh hai mera. The way history was taught to us was, indeed, excruciatingly dry.

Nevertheless, I do not think, even in hindsight, that our textbooks were biased or aimed at brainwashing us into looking at India’s past in a blinkered way. Probably, they were just silly, about as silly as the disinterested teachers who dictated notes to us from these. I remember every chapter had a summary of salient points.

The chapter on the evolution of the Varna system, for instance, contained a summary headlined ‘Merits and demerits of the caste system’, listing “purity of blood” among its positive attributes. Fortunately, by the time we moved to Class IX, we got an extraordinary history teacher in late Sudhir Kumar Bose who inculcated a sense of curiosity in the subject, freely recommending out-of-syllabus books for reading. For many of us in the humanities stream of the 1971 ISC batch from La Martinere, Kolkata, (columnist Swapan Dasgupta being an eminent example), interest in history was sustained, propelling the eventual acquisition of doctorates in the subject.

I recall these personal anecdotes only to underline my anguish at the attempt to rewrite history textbooks and the tragic politicisation of the subject at the hands of Marxist apparatchiks masquerading as scholars. In view of the flagrant abuse history is being subjected to, I believe the time has come for every thinking person to ask some fundamental questions about the way it should be taught.

The basic question is about the very purpose of teaching history. As some of my colleagues often point out, the only time most Indians learn any history is in school, pragmatically assuming that 99.9 persons do not choose history as their subject in college. In other words, their view of India’s past is conditioned by what they read in their formative years from say, six to 16. Even during this stage, history is usually not the preferred subject and only one among the array of disciplines they need to learn. That is why the teaching of history in our schools must not only be authentic, but also adhere to a purpose.

That purpose cannot be to run down the country’s civilisation, selectively black out facts, delete whatever is deemed “politically incorrect” and indoctrinate youngsters into believing that everything good that happened to India was the contribution of foreign invaders (pre-British) and all the bad was caused by indigenous forces or white imperialists. (Sorry, at a time when a Left-sponsored Congress leader of Caucasian origin was being extolled as goddess, I should be careful of using the now-sensitive term “white” negatively, lest I be accused of being racist and fascist).

The astonishing part of the proposed rewriting of history by the Marxists was that interpretations changed quite merrily with their contemporary political proclivities. In our time, the Congress was Enemy No 1; it was a bourgeois-landlord party that collaborated with the imperialists to deny the people their true political rights. This culminated, according to the Leftists, in a false freedom in 1947.

Promptly, therefore, the “toiling masses” of India rose in revolt and an armed insurrection began in Telangana. Gandhiji, we were told, was funded by the “comprador bourgeoisie” — collaborators with British industrialists — who made profits by sucking the blood of the Indian working class. That is why Gandhiji happily betrayed people’s struggles, be they the farmers of Bardoli or Pratapgarh, or workers of Mumbai’s textile mills.

With the rise of the BJP and the growing challenge of “communalism”, the focus shifted to the need to defend “secularism”. Howlers were, thus, perpetrated in history textbooks so that impressionable students believed that all Muslim rulers were adorable things viciously denigrated by trishul-wielding “RSS historians”. I believe the section on Nadir Shah’s sack of (largely Muslim) Delhi had been whitewashed in the SCERT textbook prescribed for Delhi Government schools.

Meanwhile, Shivaji was dismissed in a couple of paras, Sikh history was overlooked and both were clubbed as inevitable revolts by people in outlying regions caused by a weakened, post-Mughal Centre. An NCERT textbook altered by the NDA Government actually contained derogatory references to Guru Tegh Bahadur which described him as a bandit indulging in “rapine”!

The mindset of Marxist historiography is besotted with demolishing popular faiths and beliefs. In their arrogance, these historians assumed that people knew nothing; that all they believed from legends and tales was erroneous; and they must be rescued from blind faith and superstition. This zeal is comparable to that of the white missionaries who came to India and Africa convinced they had to deliver the ignorant inhabitants from the Dark Ages. Take Romila Thapar’s book on the Somnath temple that I reviewed in February 2004 for India Today. The entire exercise, albeit scholarly, was undertaken to exonerate Mahmud of Ghazni of his criminal offence in ransacking the splendid shrine. She takes pains to point out conflicting contemporary accounts to suggest nothing so traumatic happened.

She quoted foreign sources to say that Mahmud could have believed the temple contained the idol of the Arabic pagan goddess Manat whose worship Prophet Mohammad had initially permitted but later retracted claiming he was under Satan’s influence while approving this. Apparently, the reference to Manat is contained in the so-called Satanic Verses later deleted from the Quran. She said it’s also possible that Mahmud thought the name Somnath was derived from the Arabic su-manat, and thus connected to the pagan goddess.

I have no doubt that under the new dispensation, this is the kind of history that shall be prescribed in schools. Short of exhorting children to offer prayers to Mahmud of Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri, Nadir Shah and Aurangzeb, our new textbooks will do everything to run down all indigenous achievements. Maharana Pratap, for example, finds just a one-line reference in the SCERT book and Aryabhata none!

The unstated purpose behind this savage attack on Indian history is not mere jobbery; it is a deliberate attempt to berate India, its civilisation, religion and culture. It is aimed at emaciating the people morally and psychologically so that instead of taking pride in the country we become ashamed of its past. Once that is accomplished, we shall no doubt be expected to quietly acquiesce in many “nation-building” projects such as reconstruction of the Babri Masjid in Ayodhya!


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2009 06:08 am
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brihaspati wrote:
Cholas did not come into my discussion, because we do not have many references of the Cholas displacing Arabs in the Arabian Sea trade - we were discussing Arabs and their dominance of trade between Indian west coast and further west.


Oh really?

A sweet smelling pot-pourri of your previous posts:

Quote:
If Arabs and Sri Lanka could dominate the sea-lanes why couldnt Indian powers do so?

The last such indication of naval concerns we find curiously enough in the 7th century when Bhaskaravarma [reputed to have invaded parts of Gaura-Vanga or north Bengal], a ruler of Assam is reported to own 30,000 ships.

That Indians did resort to Naval warfare is indicated by scattered references like the Dasakumaracharita, in which a prince of Tamralipti [ancient seaport in Midnapore, modern West Bengal] "swarms" around a "Yavana".

When I want to read up on sea-trade I would look up not only Indian sources but also Chinese and Arab and Ceylonese sources.


But apparently not any Indian sources of the Cholas, the immediate neighbors of Sri Lanka, and certainly closer to the Arabian Sea than Assam and Bengal :mrgreen: And for examples of naval warfare you went all the way to Bengal, without even a brief stopover in Tamil Nadu? :((

Truly, denial is a river in Egypt.

brihaspati wrote:
And probably it may be wiser in the future not to assume regional stereotypes.


It would be wiser to read what is posted, and by whom, before typing a response. The regional assumption was made by Gandharva and not by me.

And in the light of your most recent claim, that the discussion was limited to a certain geographical area, being exposed by your own posts it would be wiser still to carefully read what you yourself previously posted before typing a response. :D


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2009 06:38 am
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
airavat ji, I have some comments on a blog post of yours which is pending approval.
would love to have some feedback.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2009 02:20 pm
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Airavatji,

You have repeatedly and carefully avoided the main points I have tried to draw attention to : the period of focus in the early 7th or 8th century, the primary question of displacement of Indian sea-power from the Arabian sea and western borders of India, the Arab capability to support their military actions on land by sea, possible falling behind in ship technology etc. I have also tried to explore how far human decision making component could have been responsible in holding back countermeasures to Muslim aggression on land. My references to extra-Arabian sea pointers were simply to supplement and contrast that even though naval military engagements are apparently not unknown to the Indians in the eastern part there does not seem to be a similar attempt on the west to stop or reverse Arab sea-power.

The reference to "regional" was for your taunt that I should learn some Tamil to read authentic sources about the Cholas. I have not assumed anything about your background personally, and I have never included expressions like "sweet smelling pot-pourri" about what you post or write. Just like your irresponsible attack on Muhammad Habib because of the politics of his son, it is disappointing on someone with your obvious knowledge and expertise.

I do not feel that further debate on this between you and me will contribute anything beyond personal sarcasm. Maybe if we meet in the future, we can have a hearty chat on the Cholas, in Tamil if you want so. :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2009 11:01 pm
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brihaspati wrote:
The reference to "regional" was for your taunt that I should learn some Tamil to read authentic sources about the Cholas.


Brihaspati, you don't actually read what is posted, because I did not ask you to learn Tamil, I asked you to read original Tamil sources. It follows from your own claim that you go beyond what historians write and try to read original sources.

The thing about your naval conflict hypothesis and the declining Indian naval capability is that it applies even more strongly to the conflict between the Bahmani Sultanate and the Kingdom of Vijaynagar.

The Arabs by this time were dominating the sea trade, so why didn't the Bahmani Sultanate use them to carry out naval attacks on Vijaynagar?

For Vijaynagar naval power was even more crucial since they controlled a long coastline and many ports. With naval power they could have displaced the Arabs and prepared for the future conflict with the European naval powers. Why was there no naval conflict between them and the Bahmanis?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2009 04:35 am
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Airavat wrote:
The thing about your naval conflict hypothesis and the declining Indian naval capability is that it applies even more strongly to the conflict between the Bahmani Sultanate and the Kingdom of Vijaynagar.

The Arabs by this time were dominating the sea trade, so why didn't the Bahmani Sultanate use them to carry out naval attacks on Vijaynagar?

For Vijaynagar naval power was even more crucial since they controlled a long coastline and many ports. With naval power they could have displaced the Arabs and prepared for the future conflict with the European naval powers. Why was there no naval conflict between them and the Bahmanis?


Bahmani sultans were Shiite so they may not have sought help from Arabs. Also they ruled land-locked areas except at their peak they controlled konkan coast mostly through land battle victories. Naval warfare was not their forte but raw land fighting was as they were generals of Delhi sultanates. Bahmani kingdom split into smaller Deccan sultanates whose alliance later defeated Vijayanagara at Tallikota.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2009 09:56 pm
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X-Posted from Prespectives thread..
ss_roy wrote:
Do not confuse wealth and money. The brits transfered money out of India, not wealth. They created wealth with that money.

I hate to say it, but bankrolling the european industrial revolution with indian money, has ultimately lifted more indians out of a subsistence existence than any indian kingdom or dynasty (hindus or muslim). For all their looting, the brits used that money to advance science and technology. Now we use it for our own ends.

Indian kings (after the 10th century AD) never built universities, schools and big civil engineering projects other than their palaces. They never tried to advance and systematize science or develop technology. The funny thing is that India had both the brainpower and agnostic culture to keep on advancing. Indian philosophy - astik schools, as well as nastik schools, are far closer to rationalism and agnosticism than the monotheistic religions. But the majority of our ancestors chose to favor bhakti and emotion over reason and logic.

Whether it is maths, algebra, calculus, metal working, medicine, alchemy- there were always enough indians to have kept us in the front. But our ancestors made poor choices, let us not repeat them.

Think about it-

Indians had both the technology (metal working, atypical inks) and the alphabet (devnagri) that would allow for developing gutenberg type printing presses on a large scale.

Indians had the technology, craftsmen, navigators and mathematical/astronomical knowledge to navigate around the world (in ships better than those used by europeans to come to India).

Indians had chemical methods to extract medicinal and toxic alkaloids from plants.

Indians had the understanding that infectious diseases were caused by microbes.

Indians had the chemical knowledge and probably made diethyl ether (the first inhaled anaesthetic).

Indians had the technology and agnosticism necessary to make (and use) small single lens microscopes like those used by Leuwenhock.

Indians were world leaders at producing saltpeter and the craftsmen/knowledge to make better guns and gunpowder. The math and brain to produce better guns was always there..

It takes sheer genius to screw up so thoroughly and extensively. Let us not repeat history..

Quote:
vsudhir, Look up the works of Mr Digby a former British ICS officer on what was the transfer of wealth from India.


and

Quote:
There is another explanation- Mercantilism always leads to stagnation. The velocity of money is proportional to innovation, not the amount.

Quote:
This way you can also explain why India was not able make similar technological advances despite having so much indigenous scientific knowledge. Even though Indians were propserous, per capita income never crossed the threshold level to be able to fund this type of innovations. Nor were they greedy because they were prosperous for several generations.



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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2009 10:46 pm
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ShyamSP wrote:
Bahmani sultans were Shiite so they may not have sought help from Arabs.


In fact the Shia Sultans of Bijapur hired an Egyptian fleet under the Arab admiral Amir Hussain to take on the Portuguese in 1508 CE.

Secondly many Sunnis served under Shia rulers, including in the Deccan, and likewise Shias have served under Sunni rulers. And lastly there were plenty of Arab Shias :) .

Now if the Muslim rulers of the Deccan could hire Arabs against the Portuguese why not against Vijaynagar?

And from Brihaspati's demand that rulers along India's northern coastline should have "disrupted Arabian Sea trade and blockaded the Gulf" but did not do so even after "facing Muslim strategy for five hundred years" the same can be asked for Vijaynagar, who faced the same "Muslim strategy" for hundreds of years but did not attempt to disrupt Arab trade, and actually welcomed Arab traders in their dominions.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2009 10:53 pm
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Quote:
Do not confuse wealth and money. The brits transfered money out of India, not wealth. They created wealth with that money.

That is interesting! I thought money is supposed to be both a counter as well as a storer of value. There is a concept of transfer of capital, and the Brits transferred capital - through unequal trade, removal of raw material, and transfer of national surplus, and capital goods.

Quote:
I hate to say it, but bankrolling the european industrial revolution with indian money, has ultimately lifted more indians out of a subsistence existence than any indian kingdom or dynasty (hindus or muslim). For all their looting, the brits used that money to advance science and technology. Now we use it for our own ends.

Ah..estimates of worse conditions for the average Indian before the Brits started ruling? Is it entirely impossible that many of all that science and technological innovation was primarily based on "initial transfer of technology" from India and China? Moreover, has such innovation really improved the relative conditions for Indians or increased the rate of exploitation and continued indirect extraction of capital and surplus value from India - enforced in exchange of forever lagged innovation foisted on India "benefiting from European innovation"?


Quote:
Indian kings (after the 10th century AD) never built universities, schools and big civil engineering projects other than their palaces. They never tried to advance and systematize science or develop technology. The funny thing is that India had both the brainpower and agnostic culture to keep on advancing. Indian philosophy - astik schools, as well as nastik schools, are far closer to rationalism and agnosticism than the monotheistic religions. But the majority of our ancestors chose to favor bhakti and emotion over reason and logic.

Bhakti or emotion was perhaps not so important. The failure is obvious even now - for we do not consider the trajectory by which India was impoverished. Transfer of capital out of India started long and intensively from the advent of Islam. This happened through transfer of looted bullion, metal, and most importantly by removal of human capital through slavery, as well as increased sponsorhip of religious activity outsode of India using Indian capital, and consumption of imported luxury items from the Islamic heartland. This was an almost 1000 year long flight of capital to which Brits added 200 more years. It was the initial military and political defeat or retreat of Indian powers before Islam that disrupted its economy and innovation.


Quote:
Whether it is maths, algebra, calculus, metal working, medicine, alchemy- there were always enough indians to have kept us in the front. But our ancestors made poor choices, let us not repeat them.
Think about it-
Indians had both the technology (metal working, atypical inks) and the alphabet (devnagri) that would allow for developing gutenberg type printing presses on a large scale.
Indians had the technology, craftsmen, navigators and mathematical/astronomical knowledge to navigate around the world (in ships better than those used by europeans to come to India).
Indians had chemical methods to extract medicinal and toxic alkaloids from plants.
Indians had the understanding that infectious diseases were caused by microbes.
Indians had the chemical knowledge and probably made diethyl ether (the first inhaled anaesthetic).
Indians had the technology and agnosticism necessary to make (and use) small single lens microscopes like those used by Leuwenhock.
Indians were world leaders at producing saltpeter and the craftsmen/knowledge to make better guns and gunpowder. The math and brain to produce better guns was always there..
It takes sheer genius to screw up so thoroughly and extensively. Let us not repeat history..

Wherever Islam flourished (except in Spain and for a brief period under one period in the Caliphate) it absorbed existing innovation as far as it was relevant for the Islamic state but destroyed all basis and infrastructure that had sustained innovations - quite deliberately. They always targeted intellectuals and educational structures who could regenerate the preexisting cultures. Together with deliberate policies of excessive exploitation to weaken indigenous cultures, this ruined all economic and infrastructural basis for for innovation to make that jump which was possible in Europe because of policies of certain authroritarian regimes (not all).


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 24 Feb 2009 12:02 am
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I guess the main question was about why transition to capitalism took place in Europe and not in India apparently. This is a very old and contentious issue. Not yet resolved I think. Started most intensively with Dobb-Schumpeter debate, continued through Robinson, and in India with the school around Sushobhan Sarkar, the subalterns, and historians like Irfan Habib (please look at his work detached from his politics) who explores possibilities of capitalist development within the Mughal economy. Penguin published a work by Arun Bose on post-Marxian theory, and some of Bose's observations could be explored on this transition debate. A post modern approach could be through a global study of historical growth, and cycles and phases or propagation of growth effects, rather than the more traditional capitalism-pre-capitalist transition debate.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 24 Feb 2009 05:08 am
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Jupiter, here is a old post by kaushal in IF.

Kaushal wrote:

This is an important paper from the Tata Institute of Fundamental research on the observations in astronomy in ancient India ,in particular the conjunction called Rohini Shaketa Bheda

http://www.tifr.res.in/~vahia/rsb.pdf

Note the changes in sea level that are reported here.

Image



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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 24 Feb 2009 03:50 pm
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Ramanaji,
between 10000 and 8000 BCE the monsoon precipitation in the Arabian sea coast had decreased drastically - as far as I can see making it the driest period since the end of last ice age around 10,500 BCE. This appears to be longer than a 1000 year period of relative drastic cooling follwoing the initial melting of the ice known as the younger Dryas. The sea level rise sort of flattens out in this period in the curve you display - due to lack of available atmospheric moisture which falls as rain. There is indirect evdiencealso of lack of freshwater discharge into the Arabian sea at the same period. But by 6000 BCE the trend reverses with one of the highest rainfall indication within the last 10,000 years. This probably could be the period of Saraswati swelling to its grandest. Another connection taht could be explored is the story of Bhagirath's "bringing of the Ganga". It is possible that the Ganges main flow dried up substantially too, and became narrower channels or partially obstructed out of heavier sedimentation in the lower reaches. Bhagirath, or someone like him took initiative to clear up the channels to increase flow for irrigation.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2009 11:09 pm
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Quote:
A delicate history of current indelicacies
http://203.197.197.71/presentation/left ... acies.aspx

By Farrukh Dhondy

Feb 28 : "I made love to remember,

She made love to forget…"

From The Regrets

of Bachchoo

A few years ago, on a trip to India, Vidia Naipaul asked me to postpone going to Mumbai from Delhi for a day so that I could accompany him to a meeting of the BJP cultural forum. I made some feeble joke about that being a rampant oxymoron and was, perhaps for that very reason, persuaded to stay.

I had to ask why he wanted me there.

"I want a neutral witness. I know what some of the Indian press is like and they’ll lie!"

I went to the meeting and took my place in the audience. Vidia said he hadn’t come to say anything but indeed to ask some questions about the cultural, economic and political policies which the party should be formulating as a blueprint for the progress of the country. A great deal of hot air rose into the unevenly plastered ceiling. There was no red-in-tooth-and-claw minority-baiting, no allusion to Hindutva, caste or any mention of the Bajrang Dal and associated organisations or indeed much discussion of "history". Vidia did ask one question about the revision of text books and why it was done and some writers and revisers of such texts gave some unmemorable innocuous reply about telling the truth. One academic historian said she had been villified and characterised as a bigot and a charlatan even though she could prove that her work was accurate but politically inconvenient. Vidia didn’t ask for details and was given none.

Then a member of the audience asked Vidia what he thought of the Babri Masjid episode and of the political controversy surrounding the march to it. Very many of the audience and the person chairing the meeting asked the questioner to shut up. Vidia said he’d say something. He said he didn’t have any opinion about the politics surrounding the demolition demand but added that he thought that if the Emperor Babur had demolished a temple and built a mosque on the site, it was an act of extreme hubris.

I don’t know if the main body of the BJP’s cultural wing understood the Greek tragedians’ concept of "hubris’" but that was all that may conceivably have been considered controversial in what Naipaul said that day.

Yet he has, through the lame meanderings of Indian "literary criticism" and lazy and illiterate and posturing journalism, acquired a reputation for being virulently anti-this-or-that and worse. When he emerged from the building, newspaper and TV reporters, who had been excluded from the gathering, were waiting in the compound. They thronged, crowded and shouted, as robust as a bear-baiting audience. "Did you support the murder of Muslims in Gujarat?" was the tenor of the questioning. Nadira Naipaul, who accompanied Vidia, became very angry, shouting back at them that she was a Muslim and that he had never ever said any such thing and had variously made very open statements condemning the killing of innocent people. The reporters asked why he didn’t attend a Congress party cultural occasion and Vidia replied that he would if he was invited.

The next days’ and weeks’ reports made it very plain that this controversy and the press attention wasn’t about who invites V.S. Naipaul to a tea and a discussion. It’s about a historical delicacy, a veil of silence and sycophancy covering our knowledge of and exposure to Indian history. Most newspapers concentrated on the fact that V.S. had accepted such an invitation. An English writer, writing in an Indian journal, gave the game away. He began by saying that "he had heard" that V.S. had attended a meeting at which he endorsed the programme of the Sangh Parivar. I know from asking that Vidia wouldn’t know a Sangh Parivar from a Sans Culotte.

The writer went on to say that poor ignorant V.S. Naipaul may write crisp and stylish prose, but didn’t know much about Indian history. The quotations and expose that followed seemed to say that the Muslim invasions of India had been of great benefit to the natives, even in their time, as these invasions had added to the gaiety of the nation by bringing to it forms of long-shirted dress and kebabs. The writer was serious.

Events this week in Argentina and Europe make one wonder about the great truths of history because one Bishop Richard Wiilliamson, an English convert to Catholicism has been widely pilloried in the press for "Holocaust denial". Williamson was thrown out last week of the radical order of Catholicism to which he belonged in Argentina and has come back to Britain. This order of St. Pius X of which he is a consecrated Bishop, was itself expelled from the Catholic Church by the last Pope John Paul II for denying a papal ordinance called Nostra Aetate, which says that the Christian accusation against Jews of "deicide" is lifted and must no longer be held as Christian belief.

Williamson was excommunicated from the Roman church when the St. Pius X sect appointed him a bishop. Last month, the present German Pope lifted the excommunication despite the fact that Bishop Williamson has been exposed since as a "Holocaust denier" who has publicly stated that his historical understanding indicates that six million Jews were not killed by the Nazis — this is a Jewish lie and an exaggeration and that it was nearer a figure of 300,000 who were murdered in the camps.

When dealing with numbers above two digits, I don’t suppose the quantum of cruelty, barbarism or genocide is in question, but today Austria and Germany have laws prohibiting the public denial of the Holocaust and the six million-figure. Austria jails those, such as British "historian" David Irving, who persist in airing this denial.

Williamson landed this week in his native Britain and was taken under the wing of self-confessed anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers such as Michele Renouf a former beauty queen and now a society hostess who was appointed to an "international fact-finding committee" by the 2006 Iranian Holocaust Denial conference.

It is very rare in our modern democracies to have a historical denial characterised as a crime against the State. Heresy as a punishable crime is, for Christian and secular states, a matter of the past. There do exist regimes and countries in which one can’t voice particular religious or political beliefs without being locked up or beheaded. In India it is not the Holocaust deniers who are the victims of smart opinion.

Now if you came to Austria and said that the Nazis’ purpose in the Holocaust was to bring new cuisine to the concentration camps and introduce striped pyjamas to the Jews, you would be locked up and forced to reconsider. In India, of course, genocide-deniers are safe.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2009 11:04 am
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Danger for commies and thaparite school of fake history. Some one destroy the evidence before their fake aryan invasion theory is destroyed by the latest findings.
Quote:
73 Harappan era burials unearthed near Delhi
March 4th, 2009 - 3:58 pm ICT by IANS -
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 62509.html

New Delhi, March 4 (IANS) At least 73 burials have been unearthed just 60 km from the Indian capital, pointing to the largest Harappan cemetery found till date. The excavations could clear many gaps in history, archaeologists said Wednesday.

The remains of the civilisation have been found in a 20-hectare-site at Farmana, in Haryana’s Rohtak district, in the Meham region. Archaeologists from three universities have been at work for three seasons - three-odd months each season - excavating the site that could turn out to be a breakthrough in the study of the Harappan civilisation.

“We have found some 73 burials at the site at Farmana. This could possibly the largest such site. Harappan cemeteries are very rare and that too in such huge numbers,” Osaga Uesugi, professor at the Research Institute for Humanity and Nature in Kyoto, Japan told IANS.

The Research Institute for Humanity and Nature, Kyoto, as one of the partners of the project, has financed it and provided technical expertise while the Maharshi Dayanand University, Rohtak and Deccan College Post Graduate and Research Institute, Pune under the aegis of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) are the local collaborators for the project.

“We have uncovered an entire town plan. The skeletal remains seem to be in the 2500 BC to 2000 BC period - this is when the civilisation prospered the most,” said Vasant Shinde, professor of the department of archaeology in the Pune institute.

Shinde, who is also the director of the excavation project here, told IANS that the findings could resolve gaps and myths in history.

“The Harappans were thought to be homogenous but the findings here point to a different possibility. While the core principles of customs and town planning are similar to what we find in the main Harappan cities in Kutch region and Pakistan, there is still variety in pottery shapes, seals and other elements in the artefacts found buried with the skeletal remains,” Shinde said.

The evidence of seven burials was discovered last year and should the work continue into another season, experts feel Farmana may throw up the evidence of a larger number of burials than even Harappa, the Pakistani Punjab town from which the civilisation of the Indus valley (3300 BC-1300 BC) takes its name.

“With a larger sample size it will be easier for scholars to determine the composition of the population, the prevalent customs, whether they were indigenous or migrated from outside,” Shinde said.

A century-and-a-half after the great civilisation was discovered, historians still have no definite answers to a number of questions, including where the Harappans came from, and why their highly sophisticated culture suddenly died out.

It was after 2000 BC that the civilisation began to fade out. We want to check if there was any climatic factor behind this. We will conduct scientific tests on skeletal remains, pottery and botanical evidence found at the site, to try to understand multiple aspects of Harappan life and the context of the site,” Shinde added.

DNA tests on bones might conclusively end the debate on whether the Harappans were an indigenous population or migrants and even on their food habits.

“Trace element analyses will help understand their diet - a higher percentage of certain elements will prove they were non-vegetarians while larger traces of magnesium will suggest a vegetarian diet,” Osaga explained.

Most chemical, botanical tests will be done at Deccan College while the more sophisticated and expensive DNA, dating tests and physical anthropology tests will be conducted in Japan.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2009 03:27 pm
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Real opposition to the British came from Hindus because those Hindus happened to be Maratha. The mythology of 1857 that people love to talk about is false. It was not a War of Independence; it was a last ditch attempt by the Marathas to gain what they had lost to the British in 1818 (The Third Anglo-Maratha war ended with the dissolution of the Marathas and secession of their land to the British). I saw a map once of those kings who fought and those who didn't. In the vast sea of Indian kingship, only a few kings actually revolted - the vast majority of them, Hindu, Muslim and Sikh either supported the British or were neutral observers.

Even Lakshmibhai was a late comer and decided to fight only when the British threatened to annex Jhansi, and not before.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2009 02:27 am
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The EIC soldiers who rebelled were non-Marathas: Purbias of UP-Bihar and Ruhelas. The Maratha Kingdoms in Central India like Gwalior and Indore were loyal to the British but their infantry soldiers, recruited from the same Purbias and Ruhelas, joined the rebellion.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2009 04:51 pm
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Airavat wrote:
The EIC soldiers who rebelled were non-Marathas: Purbias of UP-Bihar and Ruhelas. The Maratha Kingdoms in Central India like Gwalior and Indore were loyal to the British but their infantry soldiers, recruited from the same Purbias and Ruhelas, joined the rebellion.


But which attacks were coordinated? What about people like Nana Saheb, a Maratha, who did coordinate with other kings (remember the movie Mangal Pandey?)

Did they communicate with other kings like Kunwar Singh?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2009 07:11 pm
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Airavatji is right. It was a mixed bag of reactions from the Maratha elite. Ancestors of one of the prominent survivors into modern Indian politics did side with the British. Malleson I think has given great importance to Jyajirao's role in crucial stages of the revolt that helped the British.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2009 09:11 pm
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Brihaspati jee, please check your gmail account.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2009 10:43 pm
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The end of the Mahabharat War and the following centuries must have seen the decline of kingdoms (rajyams) and the birth of the mahajanapadas or citi states. We see the same phenomenon in the rise of ancient Greek citi states after the kingdoms of the heroic age. Thats the gap in the epic age and the recorded history of India.

We know the mahajanapadas declined from the 6th century BC (around Jainism and Buddhism founded) to finally end around age of the Guptas.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2009 12:37 am
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Keshav wrote:
But which attacks were coordinated? What about people like Nana Saheb, a Maratha, who did coordinate with other kings (remember the movie Mangal Pandey?)

Did they communicate with other kings like Kunwar Singh?


Keshav, forget movies and read books. You had the answer in your previous post, which is that those who lost their kingdoms, joined the rebellion. Like the Peshwa's family, Jhansi, Jagdishpur, the Taluqdars of Awadh, etc. They all did communicate with each other and coordinate attacks.

You are also right that in sheer numbers the main component of the 1857-58 war were Hindus, but most of them were inhabitants of UP-Bihar (their villages suffered mass killings at the hands of the British), and also do not discount the jehad element which became prominent in the latter part of the uprising.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2009 09:46 pm
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Airavat
What hard evidence do we have that Nana Saheb was talking with Kunwar Singh and vice versa?

Dalyrymple's Mughal-o-phile ways aren't always appreciated since he forgets ancient India even existed, but his research is top notch.

Indian mutiny was "war of religion"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5312092.stm

While it seems to me that this exaggerates the Hindu calls to war on the basis of religion (which didn't happen even during Shivaji's time), the point remains that it wasn't just the jihadis. Every king that wanted to rebel used religion as an excuse to go to war or believed they were doing the right thing. The Muslim calls to jihad are more pronounced, but if you read Lakshmibhai's letter, you find that she mentions sati and greased cartridges as offenses and justifications for war.

Also, it reminds us that our history is not so poorly recorded. We just need to find it and translate many of the works that are languishing in archaeological limbo due to a general lack of interest in history.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2009 09:50 pm
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The whole thing is like the six blind men and the elephant. Every one sees it for what they want to see. The correct perception is its the sum of what they all see.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2009 09:53 pm
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I found these letters online and attributes them to Rani Lakshmibhai (of Jhansi). Can anyone translate and/or corroborate these claims?

Image

Image


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2009 10:20 pm
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I was asked to post a ref to this work.

1) Bio of Hemachandra RayChaudhari

2) His Magnum Opus:
Political History of ancient India from Accession of Parikshit to extinction of Guptas


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2009 10:48 pm
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One way of looking at Jainism and Buddhism is that they are not protest movements or schisms from Hinduism but more like Enlightenment (the realization that non-killing is a good thing) and the Hindusim that adopted the prinicples during the Guptas is akin to Reformation.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2009 12:49 am
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Keshav,

By "jehad element" I was pointing out that the revolt was widespread, covering many different regions and communities, in response to your original claim that 1857 "was a last ditch attempt by the Marathas to gain what they had lost to the British in 1818".


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2009 05:19 pm
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I think JL Nehru was a modern day Ashoka in the impact of his policies on his successors. It wasnt a coincidence that the three lions were chosen on the Indian Flag. JLN had partial understanding of the Ashokan impact on Indian history.

Modern India's Kalinga was Partition in 1947 and the consequent killings which sapped the fighting spirit of India.

HRC page 183

Quote:
But the policy of Dhammavijaya which he formulated
after the Kalinga War was not likely to promote the
cause for which a long line of able sovereigns from
Bimbisara to Bindusara had lived and struggled. Dark
clouds were looming in the north-western horizon. India
needed men of the calibre of Puru and Chandragupta to
ensure her protection against the Yavana menace. She
got a dreamer. Magadha after the Kalinga War frittered
away her conquering energy in attempting a religious
revolution,
as Egypt did under the guidance of Ikhnaton.
The result was politically disastrous as will be shown in
the next section. Asoka's attempt to end war met with
the same fate
as the similar endeavour of President Wilson.


For JLN the new Dhammavijaya was the creation/foundation of the secular state (which his daughter Constituionalised) and the syncretic history of India. By promoting this he frittered away the energy of the people of tIndia who had overthrown the colonial yoke and turned India inward while the new threat was on the North East- PRC. It was this turn inwards at crucial time that causes the fracture of India central authority time and time again in Indian history.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2009 08:00 pm
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JLN tried his best to convince Sikhs and Hindus of Punjab to not to retaliate against the atrocities done by Djinna's Pakjabis . In same vein he was procastinating in Jammu and Kashmir. He did more harm to indian society than islamists ever did.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2009 09:24 pm
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Prem wrote:
JLN tried his best to convince Sikhs and Hindus of Punjab to not to retaliate against the atrocities done by Djinna's Pakjabis . In same vein he was procastinating in Jammu and Kashmir. He did more harm to indian society than islamists ever did.


Somebody who watched JLN during the Partition saw JLN shouting at Hindus who were attacking Muslims during partition but was unconcerned about the plight of the Hindu victims who were being attacked by the Muslim mobs.

The leader himself was unable to influence the British to send armed army to the border areas to reduce violence.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2009 09:30 pm
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To anyone -

Are the letters above written in Hindi or Marathi?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2009 09:47 pm
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Keshav-ji, even though I am from the South, my Hindi is pretty decent, but looking at the letters you have posted each line looks like a HUGE word instead of a sentence :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2009 10:15 pm
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JLN essentially came to power because he was the optimal choice for the British to hand over power to. In contrast to potential rivals of JLN, the British never really forced him to go into exile and get detached from his political base. By leaning strongly against the indigenous "Hindu" nationalists, hobnobbing with the "communists", JLN managed to maintain probable impressions in the British that just like his dad, JLN could never really be that much "indigenous" so as to be completely antagonistic to British interests. I agree that he probably imagined himself in the grandiose delusions of being a modern Ashoka. There are probably curious clues thrown all around in his career. But it is there that any similarities end. He never showed any of the military brain that Ashoka is reputed to have shown (agreed - all that could be panegyrics of Ashoka) - but at least Ashoka is supposed to have been deemed sufficiently qualified to be sent to suppress rebellious provinces, and apparently did manage to win the Kalinga campaign.

But for him it was important to allow the partition to destroy the Punjabi and Bengali nationalists. These would have been the most troublesome and a challenge to his political ambitions. He could also have been scared of any concessional move by MKG that forced a compromise with MAJ where he might have to share the top job. He realized, or was made to realize by the British/Communists that his chances lay in keeping the country split along religious, regional, linguistic lines so that the major groups kept on competing and fighting each other, where he as a weak political entity could appear to be the only neutral arbitor.

I would propose that throughput Indic history, individuals from the elite who realized that on their own merit they could not gain power and that they needed to appear neutral, syncretic, "spanning bridges over yawning chasms" - who have promoted recosntructions of history in a way that suited their political needs and enhanced or sharpened fractures.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2009 10:36 pm
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brihaspati wrote:
I would propose that throughput Indic history, individuals from the elite who realized that on their own merit they could not gain power and that they needed to appear neutral, syncretic, "spanning bridges over yawning chasms" - who have promoted recosntructions of history in a way that suited their political needs and enhanced or sharpened fractures.


Aside from Akbar, who else would fit this description?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2009 10:52 pm
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Acharya wrote:
Prem wrote:

Somebody who watched JLN during the Partition saw JLN shouting at Hindus who were attacking Muslims during partition but was unconcerned about the plight of the Hindu victims who were being attacked by the Muslim mobs.

The leader himself was unable to influence the British to send armed army to the border areas to reduce violence.


He was almost beaten in Amritsar while giving "advice" to janta to practice gandhigiri with goons of Djinnah. Brahasapati is correct, he had to destroy the revolutionary spirit of Bengal which gave India Vivekananda and Punjab who gave activist like Bhagat Singh. The amalgamation of values of both of these spiritual and temporal icons could have easily laid down the foundation of Indic Nationalism which we are still seeking. JLN attacked the very soul of India in pursuit of his own glory and we are paying the price.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2009 11:43 pm
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Hmm... apparently, no can read Hindi or Marathi on this board...

Another question to the experts on Mauryan history:
The Mauryan Empire was formally dissolved after Pusyamitra Sunga killed Brhadrata Maurya and formed the Sunga Empire.

Colonial historians remarked that Sunga was a Hindu (they use the word Brahmanic) fanatic and actively sought the destruction of Buddhism while evidence suggest otherwise.

Wikipedia actually has some good resources on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunga

The other explanation given for Sunga's coup is that Brhadrata on account of religious commonality gave the Buddhist Indo-Greek Menander free reign in conquering the Northwest region and that Sunga stepped in to counter it.

Are any of these stories true or was it simply Sunga's greed that propelled him to murder the last Mauryan?

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