Tuesday, August 18, 2009

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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2009 05:40 am
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Quote:
Quote:

looking at the picture of a kushan prince above, the face looks more caucasus than mongoloid


That doesn't necessarily prove anything. If you look at Chinese portraits of Turkish generals or even Marco Polo, you'll think he was Chinese. That community might have their own particular story, but this doesn't negate the evidence that the Kushans were Central Asians who are themselves a mix of anybody who ever conquered the area.


The other major indicators completely denies Kushans connections with Chinese or Central asian tribes

1) Kushan Sculptures, arts, dress, coinage, language, Weapons, Musical Instruments etc are not showing any connection or influence of china or central asia. Look at some art/sculpture here

2) The deities worshipped by Kushans were either persian or hindu and buddhist. Deities worshipped were Nana, Mao, Ardoxo (female) and Oesho (Shiva with Nandi), Miiro (Mihir?), Buddha etc (Male deities), Mithras, Skanda and Vishakha. Look at some deities depicted on Kushan coinage here

3) Kushans official scripts were either Roman (Graeco-Roman) or Kharoshti and occasionally brahmi. There is a special branch of Brahmi called Kushan Brahmi No chinese related script, language or writing style

4) The kushan kings' names do not even remotely resemble any chinese/car names. For instance, Vima (Bhima) Takto, Vima Kadphises, Huvishka, Kujula Kadphises, Kanishk, Vasudev etc.

5) the word Kadphises is wrongly read by englightened western indologists while they read it in Roman. In Kharoshthi, it is read Kapisasya, this is sanskrit - meaning "of or from Kapisa"
Kapisa = kabul

point No. 1 to 5 == No Chinese/CAR roots, influence or origin can be attributed to Kushans

The Yue-Chi or Yue-Zhi does not even remotely sound Ku-Shan

JMT/JMO


Last edited by Manasvi on 10 Jun 2009 07:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2009 06:07 am
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Quote:
http://news.rediff.com/interview/2009/jun/10/california-education-board-to-compensate-hindu-parents.htm


California education board to compensate Hindu-American parents

Quote:
The California Department of Education and the State Board of Education have agreed to pay US $ 175,000 to the California Parents for the Equalisation of Educational Materials (CAPEEM) � the organisation formed by Hindu American parents � to fight the case against the California State.

"Believing that its points had been clearly understood by the defendants, CAPEEM opted not to prolong the litigation.
The State entered into negotiations with CAPEEM and agreed to pay CAPEEM US $ 175,000 in exchange for a voluntary dismissal of the lawsuit," CAPEEM said in a statement.


This is a little confusing -- does this mean they won the case (in principle at least) since usually only the guilty party pays damages for out of court settlement?

Or is the battle still on? -- If its a victory, Kudos to Kaushal et al who plugged in their might to make this happen.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2009 06:21 am
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ramana wrote:
Sanku wrote:
Whats the evidence that Kushan's were a non-Indic tribe/power? Serious question.


They are considered as eastern most of the Indo_Europeans. Not Sinic.

They are Indic people. Maybe on this basis India should claim Kashgar to apply Mao's logic.


Thanks Ramana, they are clearly a Indic people then, one who were pushed back into Indian heartland because of expansion pressures of other non Indic tribes in that area, of course like other Indic people on the periphery they have higher elements of assimilation of non Indic and external influences too.

Hardly a Sinic tribe.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2009 02:21 pm
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I thought the YueCei were a group of tribes who were pushed out due to Chinese expansion?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2009 03:29 pm
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Yes. However they are Indics and not Sinic as is implied by the Central Asian connections. Thats the point.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 03:18 am
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ramana wrote:
Yes. However they are Indics and not Sinic as is implied by the Central Asian connections. Thats the point.


Ramana Garu, Kushans are definetely not sinic. The contenders are Indic or Iranic. As per western historians , Kushans are belived to be a scythian tribe.Although the origin of scythians itself is not known, the western historians makes it look like scythians are iranic tribe. I beleive Kushans are Indic. They are as much as Indic as all the North Indian casts like Jatts, Khatris , Rajputs etc all of whom look not any different from the rest of the Indians but fall over themselves to prove that they all originated from scythians outside India.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 03:42 am
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Sanjay Chaudhary, I got the souvenier of the History Conference held in New Delhi 2009. Great job in helping organize it and the publication of the souvenier. Will ask Kaushal garu as to how to get access to the papers for wider dissemination.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 12 Jun 2009 06:35 pm
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ramana wrote:
I am finally getting to read the blow by blow account of the Delhi Sultanate fromits early years to the eclipse by the Chagatai Sultanate aka Mughal Empire. (Three volume hisotry by J.L. Mehta). The books have their own proportion of syncretic kool-aid but taking a cue from the "raja hansa" I am discerning the milk form water!.

What strikes me is the current setup in TSP with military as the primary power center harks back to the Mameluke era (1206-1290) introduced by Mohammed Ghori via Qutubuddin Aibek. The amazing thing is the one to one matching of the TSP elite groups to similar ones of that period.

The unfortunate thing for TSP people and India is these new Mamelukes are owned by Western and PRC interests and propped up.

What TSP needs is a Khilji revolution to change its power structure and then it might go on its own path.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2009 11:40 pm
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Have any of you heard of the author Robert Kaplan. If so do you have idea about his biasness or so against Indians and hindus in particular.
I read a book "A natural history of 0"(zero). In that book, the author has almost dedicated two chapters for indians relations with zero. One is just to bash indians understanding of about everything and the other chapter is to show that zero is indeed an import from Greece along with horoscopy.
Initially it was interesting, as I was reading the book from the last chapter. However, when I reached the 6th and 5th the Indian bashing turned me nuts. Though, he mentions about other civilizations like Sumeria, Maya, Aztec and their understanding of emptiness when it comes to indians in each sentence he tried to put any Indian contribution down. He was too sarcastic, wherever he mentions the ancient indian authors refering to greek books like "YavanaJataka".

Any inputs will be appriciated. TIA.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009 06:03 am
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sivabala wrote:
Have any of you heard of the author Robert Kaplan. If so do you have idea about his biasness or so against Indians and hindus in particular.
I read a book "A natural history of 0"(zero). In that book, the author has almost dedicated two chapters for indians relations with zero. One is just to bash indians understanding of about everything and the other chapter is to show that zero is indeed an import from Greece along with horoscopy.
Initially it was interesting, as I was reading the book from the last chapter. However, when I reached the 6th and 5th the Indian bashing turned me nuts. Though, he mentions about other civilizations like Sumeria, Maya, Aztec and their understanding of emptiness when it comes to indians in each sentence he tried to put any Indian contribution down. He was too sarcastic, wherever he mentions the ancient indian authors refering to greek books like "YavanaJataka".

Any inputs will be appriciated. TIA.

There is som eevidence that there is lot appropriation out of Indic.
Some people are doing research


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2009 01:13 am
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Wiki article about Central Asians in Ancient Indian Literature


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2009 02:25 am
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Received in e-mail. Stan_S and others what do you think? There is a mystery here. My gut feeling is that the Scheduled Casts were created by conquerors and are not intrinsic to Hinduism. I may be wrong but that is my gut feeling.

Quote:
I happened to read description about Pariahs in the following book. After analyzing, I started getting suspicion that Paraiyans were an important caste group (even Brahmins) who were put down when British were grabbing power in South India.

Read the chapter while keeping in mind that this was written in 1909 after casteism was established. Key points to be noted are those mentioned as their earlier stories or histories and customs. Of course, filter out British spins during narration.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Erin3n ... 1#PPA77,M1

Following are my data points to be considered:

- Page 81: Valluvans (part of Paraiyans) used to wear sacred thread
- Page 83, first para: They had separate burning grounds - Not burial ground as they happened to do later
- Page 83: describes about Parayans priestly privileges
- Page 83: "In 1799, however, the right to enter temple was stopped at Dhvajasthambham". This tells when lower castes were prevented from entering temples! This was the age when British were taking over India.
- Page 84: Says Parayans also used to pull temple carts
- Page 84: Brahmin women used to worship at Paraiyan shrines
- Page 84: They claim to be descendents from Brahman priest Sala Sambhavan. Beef theory may have a different angle. Their story says that Brahmins priests are their cousins
- Page 85: Their story says "Paraiyans were the first creation, who first wore sacred thread"
- Page 86: They were the experts of village boundaries
- Page 87: Sometimes, the separation between Brahmin gramam and Paraiyan cheri was just a road or lane
- Page 88: Mentions an instance when Paraiyan started occupying agraharam vacated by Brahmins, and still called Agraharam
- Page 89: Paraiya women used to put ceremonial Kolam (or sacred pattern) in front of their house
- Page 91: Adultery is considered as a serious crime
- Page 92: There were excommunicated Paraiyans!
- Page 94: There were Vaishnavaites and Shaivaites among Paraiyans
- Page 94: There were cross cousin marriages among them
- Page 99: Valluvan priest performs homam in corrupt (British spin) Sanskrit!!!!
- There are lot of descriptions about Paraiyan rituals, which are very similar to any other major caste group

There are some important data about Paraiyans of Kerala:
- Page 131: They claim to be Brahmins!
- Page 132: It mentions about a Brahmin who became Paraiyan
- Page 132: Adultery was considered as a serious crime, and practiced Smarthavicharam, one practiced by Nambuthiris
- Page 135: Girls had mini marriage (kettu kalyanam) as achild and regular marriage (sambandam) as adult.These were practiced by Nairs too.
- Page 137: Some Paraiyars had good ancestral properties - not poor
- Page 138: In AD 927, one Raja gave privileges to Praiyars
- Page 138: During war with Tipu prclamation was made that every Paraiyar must have a master!!! This is the beginning of subjugation to slave like condition!!!
- Page 138: It says that some resepectable Paraiyars contacted Nambuthiris to accept them as slaves for money.
- Page 139: They claim that they were Brahmins and entrapped by enemies by making them eat beef
- Page 139: It was made their custom to eat meat of dead animals. This, I think, was a forced degradation
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some analysis:

- In Karnataka, their entry into temple was stopped in 1799! (after William Jones published his English Manusmriti)

- In Kerala, their status was made to that of slaves during the raid of Tippu. All I can guess here is that when Tippu invaded, the Travancore king needed British help. This proclamation must have been a British demand, because it doesn't help war against Tippu any way.

- Another thing I noticed is that Paraiyar had a lot of mystic capabilities (they are now labeled black magic). Only other caste that has similar capabilites are Brahmins. It is possible that Pariyars possessed some great sacred knowledge of Hinduism.

- I see every possibility that Paraiyars were subjugated to lowest level through systematic effort by British. Most likely they must have been the first defenders of Hinduism in South India. Subjugation of Paraiyans must have scared off other Brahmins, and that must be the reason why Brahmins fully cooperated with British in their agenda.

- The key missing piece in this jigsaw puzzle is the interaction between Paraiyars and British in 1600s and 1700s.

Could you please contact your contacts in Tamil Nadu, to investigate in this angle?

Thanks!



Looks like they were Brahmins who made wrong turn some time? Was it the Madurai Sultanate?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2009 05:40 am
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Regarding Kaplan's india bashing attitude:

We have option to believe Kaplan and his Ilk on India Bashing

or Belive

In Albert Einstein and people like him who have given due recognition to India/Hindus.

(And why on we want to believe on any of above, are not we sure about us?)


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2009 05:57 am
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Term Shak(a) is highly controversial.

Calling Kushans and Scythians as Shak invaders looks misplaced as some references suggest in Mahabharat.

there is a mention of Yudhishthir Shakam (a calendar, probably in 3082 BC)
at one point, when i was listening to Bhagvatam Reading (Saptah) it was mentioned Krishna giving blessing to Arjun - Shakvarti Bhava (has anybody got reference?)

King Drupada had suggested to invite Shaka, Pahlava, Kamboja, Rishika [Kamboja rishika MBH 5/4/18] and Darada kings in the Mahabharata war.

Lord Buddh is known as Shakya Muni and he is from Shak clan(?). known as Shaka Nyorai, Enlightened One, Shaka, Shakyamuni, Sakyamuni Gautama Buddha.

the use of shak samvat is also controversial.

It beats me...


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2009 06:37 am
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Manasvi,

Many of our ancient texts were re-written or completed at later dates like the Puranas and the Mahabharat. Some of the Puranas were composed in the post-Maurya and Gupta periods, by which time the presence of the foreigners in NW India was well known.

Only the Vedic texts were not re-written and they have no reference to these tribes.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2009 12:13 pm
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ramana: The actual term - ST - might owe its origins to the British surveys and "reforms". Travelers and other observers (possibly with vested interests) have observed the social conditions. Alberuni notes that there were people outside the 4 varnas who were not know by their caste but by their guild or profession.

The next thing is the chaturvarna and South India - especially parts of Tamil Nadu. The varna ashram did not develop in the South; when the north and south cultures met, the varanaashram from the North and existing clans/tribes from the south fused together. This happened long before the Muslim Invaders or the European powers rode into India.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2009 02:15 am
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Quote:
The next thing is the chaturvarna and South India - especially parts of Tamil Nadu. The varna ashram did not develop in the South; when the north and south cultures met, the varanaashram from the North and existing clans/tribes from the south fused together. This happened long before the Muslim Invaders or the European powers rode into India.

Is that description aligned with AIT?

What is the timeline you think the north and south people met in TN?

Also, could you please provide any reference to the Al-Biruni''s argument? TIA


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2009 12:29 pm
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From - Alberuni's India. Translation - Dr. Edward C. Sachau. Chapter: On the castes, called "colours" (Varna). Page 85.
Quote:
After the Sudra follow the people called Antyaja, who render various kinds of services, who are not reckoned amongst any cast, but only as members of a certain craft or profession. There are eight classes of them, who freely intermarry with each other, exept the fuller, shoemaker, and weaver, for no others would condescend to have anything to do with them. These eight guilds are the fuller, shoemaker, juggler, the basket and shield maker, the sailor, the fisherman, the hunter of wild animals and of birds, and the weaver. The four castes do not live together with them in one and the same place. These guilds live near the villages and towns of the four castes, but outside them.


As far as the North-South amalgamation or meet goes, looks like it came out little differently than what I had in mind - poor choice of words on my part. Let me check KAN for you {in a day or two}


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2009 02:56 pm
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X-posted from Future scenarios thread... See how he realtes the past to the future.

brihaspati wrote:
Current scenario in India can perhaps best be characterized as a phase of extreme and accelerating diversity. Historically, India shows alternate periods of extreme diversity and then a counterreaction towards extreme unification and homegenization followed by a counterreaction again of moving towards extreme diversity. During the diversity phase, concomitants are the presence, intrusion or activity of "foreign" elements in society and ideology.

We can identify such phases in expansion of the Persians into the western provinces of India circa 500-600 BCE, which is followed by attempts at political and ideological consolidation in the Magadhan empire. The process deepens with the advent of the Greeks, followed by political and ideological consolidation in the Mauryan empire. Same happens with the fall of the Mauryas, and the phase leading up to the Kushan consolidation and corresponding consolidation in the south. The phenomenon repeats with the period of the Guptas, and more spectacularly illustrated in the follow up to the Islamic invasions with the rise of Shankara school of thought. The later phase under Sultanate is of coures more well documented and we can identify the patterns more clearly, right up to the advent and eventual formal expulsion of the British.

The average human mind is perhaps limited in the number of models it can maintain of abstract entities with corresponding associated concrete rules of behaviour. So too much diversity means too many models a single individual has to keep in mind while deciding how to react in a given situation. Eventually a time comes, when that threshold of capacity is crossed and people become open to suggestions of homogenization and unification that simplifies and reduces the number of different models. Indians have prehaps been subjected historically to many more such episodes of diversification that has acted as stimulus to increase the threshold compared to other societies which started out later on the path towards complexity. This slightly increased capacity is reflected in the easier acceptance and tolerance of diversity as reflected in the ideological history quite prominently, as compared to say European society.

But still even this increased threshold is reached eventually, even in India. At the moment we are fracturing our society and ideology at an accelerating pace. The more this happens the quicker we approach the point when the majority of the population will reach their threshold and be looking for a simpler, homeogenizing, unifying framework. Is that going to be the Abrahamic? Unlikely, for they are "too simple" for the level of complexity that the Indian mind has become used to. Can it be the vacccum ideology as maintained and promoted by the "secularist" Congress+Left position? That leaves too much to opportunistic thinking and individual decisions relying on their self-interest only - something the general Indic mind is not comfortable with over the long term.

Are we ready to think towards an alternative? Whether we like it or not, we will have to face this question, and it is intimately linked with the geo-political scenario for the next few generations in India.



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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2009 10:09 pm
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I was hoping someone would read this in Non Western World view and post here.
From Saudi Aramaco Journal

The Leek Green Sea

And it refers to an e-book that vsunder had posted long time ago:

Quote:
This is largely thanks to a Greek work written around AD 70 and called The Periplus of Erythraean Sea. This precious little document, almost certainly written by an Egyptian trader from Alexandria, is entirely devoid of fantasy. It lists all the ports of the Red Sea, on both the African and Arabian coasts, their exports and imports, and some details of their political and ethnic makeup. It gives information about the incense trade with South Arabia and describes the thriving commerce between Egypt, East Africa and the major ports of the western coast of India, the most important of which was Barygaza —today’s Bharuch.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2009 07:17 pm
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Blog about Indian History thur the ages

India thru the ages


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2009 03:25 am
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FYI:

Dikgaj's blog

http://dikgaj.wordpress.com/indian-hist ... ropaganda/

A critique of the distortions of the Thaparite school.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2009 01:48 pm
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The problem with Indian history, IMHO, is faulty translation of words like Raashtra, Dharma, Sanskriti to Nation, Religion, Culture respectively.

Knowing India

from my blog...


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2009 08:05 pm
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X-posted...

Quote:
When Pigs Fly–and Scold: Brits Lecturing Sri Lanka!
By Gary Brecher


Key fact: in Sri Lanka heroes were allowed to get fat, another reason to like the place.

You see some pretty sick stuff when you do my job, but I just read something sicker than any Congo cannibal buffet. It’s an article by a posh little limey named Jeremey Brown condemning the Sri Lankan government for being too messy in putting down the LTTE, and demanding that we stop buying the cheap textiles the poor Sinhalese make their living churning out.

What’s sick about this is that the British establishment destroyed the Sinhalese people completely. Completely and purposely, sadistically. Stole their land, humiliated and massacred their government, made it Imperial policy to erase every shred of self-respect the Sinhalese had left. You can talk about the Nazis all day long, but for my money nothing they did was as gross as what you find out when you actually look into the history of British-Sinhalese relations. If you can even call them “relations”; I guess a murder-rape is a relation, sort of.

But nobody knows about it. Weird, huh? Nothing weirds me out more than the total news blackout the Brits have managed to put on all the sick sh1t they did to brown and black people all over the world. They had a system, and it worked. They’d grab some paradise island in the tropics, use the Royal Navy to wall it off from the rest of the world, and crush the local tribe. If the locals resisted, the Brits would starve them to death, shoot them down, infect them with smallpox or get them addicted to opium–whatever they had to do to gang-rape the locals so bad that they’d lose the will to resist.

And to this day, they don’t catch even a little bit of Hell for it. Everybody thinks the Brits are all cute and harmless. You’re all a bunch of suckers for those suave accents, you suckers! The truth is that compared to the Brits, the Nazis you’re always yammering about were a gang of eighth-grade stoners who ran around spraypainting swastikas on school property. The Nazis lasted one decade; the Brits quietly ran their extermination programs for three hundred years, and to this day they wouldn’t even think of feeling guilty about it. Wouldn’t cross their minds.

That’s what made me want to puke battery acid when I read Mister Jeremy Brown’s sermon on the naughty Sinhalese: this pig Brown has no clue about why Sri Lanka is so fu*ked up, no hint at all that it’s the result of British Imperial policy. Not “mistakes” or “a few bad apples” or “regrettable excesses” but clear, cold, ruthless British policy.

One of the funniest bits in Brown’s little Anglican sermon to the Sinhalese is when he mentions Arthur C. Clarke, the Brit sci-fi writer who moved to Sri Lanka. The reason that’s funny is that a few years back, when he was too senile and drunk to watch his tongue, Clarke admitted in an interview that the whole reason he moved to Sri Lanka is “for the boys.” As in, he liked to rape little boys, and they were cheap and pretty in the dear old ex-colony. The fu*king Brits wouldn’t stop raping the Sinhalese even after their troops were forced off the island.

Jeremy Brown wouldn’t know that, of course. To him, Clarke is a wonderful example of all the wonderful things British people have done for po’ little Sri Lanka:

“Britain has…helped to rebuild Sri Lanka’s tourist industry: Britons accounted for 18.5 per cent of the foreigners who visited the former colony’s famous beaches, wildlife parks, tea plantations and Buddhist temples last year. Only India sends more tourists. Many Britons also own property there, especially around the southern city of Galle, not far from where Arthur C.Clarke, the British science fiction writer who settled in Sri Lanka, used to love to scuba dive. [Is that what they’re callin’ it these days? GB]

So the question facing British shoppers and holidaymakers is this: should they continue to support Sri Lanka’s garment and tourist industries?

Don’t you love that last sentence: “Sadly, the answer must be no.” Anybody who can write a sentence like that without blowing his brains out at the monitor is a hopeless twit anyway, but let’s help Jeremy out a little bit, folks, let’s go back in time and take a quick look at all the wonderful things the Brits did for these rotten, ungrateful Sinhalese.

The pattern you see in the colonizing of Sri Lanka is a real familiar one, if you study the European naval empires: the Portugese, the greatest sailors and explorers, came to Sri Lanka long before the Brits, claimed the place, but couldn’t hold on to it. The Portugese lost the island to the Dutch, those up’n’coming Protestant go-getters, in the mid-1600s. That’s another pattern you see everywhere, the old Papist powers losing out to the Protestants, who were just faster and smarter.

The next stage was also totally by the book: the Brits, the canopy tree if you know what I mean, come along and force the Dutch out. There were times the Brits sort of liked the Dutch; they were Protestant, at least, and blonde/blue-eyed. But business was business, and the Brits realized, by the end of the 1700s, that Sri Lanka was worth taking. Of course they didn’t say that in public; the official reason was that they had to boot the Dutch to guard the island from the nasty radical Frenchies.

That way of stealing islands, making it sound like you had to take them for the greater good–that was classic Brit strategy. They always made it look like they were forced, against their will, to grab this or that colony. I dunno if y’all ever saw a movie called Erik the Viking, but it has a great scene with John Cleese playing this insane bloodthirsty warlord who orders people tortured to death in this tired, disappointed upper-class voice, and then whines, “It’s the stress that gets you”–all put upon and harrassed, like Attila the Hun meets The Office. That’s a perfect image for the way the Brits booted the Dutch out of Ceylon, tsk-tsking while they stole every shed, cannon and bale of tea on the island.

With the Dutch trade rivals gone, the Brits had only one problem left: the damned natives, the Sinhala, or “Kandyans” as they were called back then. That dumb name, “Kandyans,” came from the fact that their main city was Kandy, up in the highlands in the south of the island, the fat part of the teardrop. The Sinhala lived in the highlands for the simple reason that it was a little cooler, not as totally malarial, up there compared to the stinking coastal marshes.

By all accounts, the Sinhala/Kandyans were harmless slackers, who didn’t need or want much from the outside world. All they asked was for people to leave them alone up on their big rocky highlands to do their Buddhist thing. Unfortunately that wasn’t British policy. It irked the redcoats that Kandy still had a king, an army, all this impudent baggage that went with independence. The British decided to break the Sinhalese completely, crush the whole society.

You have to remember that by this time, the early 1800s, the Brits have perfected their techniques in little experiments all over the world. Those Clockwork Orange shrinks were amateurs compared to the Imperial Civil Service. They had dozens of ways of undermining native kingdoms.

British administrators were trained to do a kind of rough, quick sociological sketch of the natives, get a sense of the fault lines and then figure out how to exploit them. The Brits saw fast that the Kandyans were a sluggish bunch of people divided into rigid castes in the classic subcontinent pattern. That made it easy: the Brits made two big castes their official pets and shunned the others, setting up a violent hate between different parts of Sinhalese society. That guaranteed that if the diehard Sinhalese/Kandyan nationalists ever revolted, the teacher’s-pet castes would have a good selfish reason to help massacre them.

Then there was the Kandyan king himself. The Brits weren’t dumb in the way Paul Bremer was dumb, “de-Baathifying” Iraq. They loved corrupt local rulers. Much easier and cheaper to bribe one fat old degenerate on a throne than negotiate with all the commoners. So the Brits started playing with the nervous, dumb-ass Kandyan royals, scaring them with the threat of losing everything and then teasing them with the possibility of the safe, soft life of a Brit puppet.

This was the major leagues of Colonialism. To give you an idea of how important Ceylon/Sri Lanka was back then, try this on: in 1802, when French armies were kicking British and Prussian and Italian and Russian ass all over Europe (weird how nobody remembers that, huh?), the Brits were so terrified they tried to give Napoleon all their colonies except Sri Lanka and Trinidad. Those were the two they needed to keep.

And this is where another standard Brit policy came into play–a real smart one that we ought to be imitating: use native auxiliaries, not homeland troops, as much as possible. For all kinds of reasons, but here are the main ones:

1. If you bring in troops from some remote part of the Empire to do your dirty work, it’s those troops, those faces and accents, the locals will remember, and hate, for generations. So you, the sly little pink Brit administrator, can stroll in later and commiserate with the locals as they show you around their burned huts, bayoneted kids, etc., and even say with a straight face, “Oh my, those auxiliaries from wherever, what ruddy heathens, eh? Outrageous, I shall certainly let Whitehall know about these abuses!” Then, of course, you get in your sedan chair, close the curtains and chuckle all the way home to where your little bum-boy is waiting.

2. Nobody back in London counts casualties as long as it’s Malay mercs dying. You can lose a lot of them–and a lot of Malays did die fighting the Sinhala, especially in the total rout of a malaria-sapped Brit/Malay force at the Mahaveli River in 1803–but nobody is going to make a fuss in the Times of London (Mister Jeremy Brown’s paper, as you may recall). If you’re lucky they’ll pop off before payday and you can keep their payroll for that estate in Shropshire.

3. Dropping hot-blooded feisty Malay muslims with guns far from home and making them fight Sinhalese bleeds Malay society as well as Sinhalese. Left in peace, Malays could be trouble–a proud, warlike people. So by sending them to die in Sri Lanka, you’re diverting all that young, angry Malay blood away from SE Asia and using it to bleed Kandy (bleed Kandy–I like that!). Two birds, one bloodsoaked stone.

You see why I get impatient with you gullible suckers yammering about the fu*king Nazis? The Nazis were retards, a white-trash tantrum, an eighth-grade chem-class pipe bomb, a quick-fizzle flash in the pan, compared to the Brits, the scariest motherfu*kers ever to butt-f*(k the planet.

The mercenaries the Brits sent to crush the Kandyans were Malays, muslims from SE Asia who didn’t need a lot of pep talks to slaughter South Asian Buddhists (and steal their chickens). That was life for the Brits back then, at the top of their game: picking up pieces from one part of the world and dropping them where they’d do the most harm, half the world away. “Ah yes, let’s ferry some Malay mercs to Kandy, that should give the bloody idol-worshippers something to think about!”

Destroying Buddhism was a big part of Brit policy. The Buddhist routine, the temples, begging monks, long boring prayers–it was the glue that kept Kandy together. So the Brits decided to destroy it. They even said so, in private memos to each other. They weren’t shy in them days. Here’s the Brit governor in 1807: “Reliance on Buddhism must be destroyed. Make sure all [village] chiefs are Christian.”

Up to 1818, the Brits had a blast messing with doomed Sinhala rebellions, trying out CI recipes like Frankenstein guesting on Rachael Ray. A good time was had by all, except the Sinhalese. They had a very, very bad time, and it was about to get worse.

See, another constant you’ll find in Brit imperial policy is that although they’re very sly and patient, they have a very good sense of when to cut the crap and just wipe out a tribe that’s been annoying them for too long. They were getting sick of the Sinhalese, with all their bickering and intrigues; the redcoats just weren’t enjoying the Col. Kurtz game the way they used to. So boom: the “kill’em all” era begins.

But they did it smart, not like the idiot boastful Nazis y’all love to obsess on. I bet every one on the planet can name the Nazi death camps, but I’d be surprised if more than, say, a half dozen people outside Sri Lanka can name the policy the Brits used to destroy the Sinhala for good.

Anybody? Didn’t think so. See, here’s another little tip for up’n’coming genocidaires out there: always pick the most boring name possible. Those fu*king Nazis, with their heavy-metal jewelry and titles! Dopes! You want extermination programs with names that put everybody to sleep.

And that’s why in 1818 Britain brought “the wasteland policy” to Kandy. They could have called it what that Liberian wacko called his campaign: “Operation No Living Thing.” That’s what it meant: Brit-led troops “draining the sea” the Sinhala irregulars swam in by burning every hut, every field, and killing every animal in every village they suspected of harboring “rebels.”

Hey, that’s another key Brit CI techniques: that word “rebels.” Blows me away: how can a Sinhalese in Sri Lanka, fighting for the country his people have owned for a hundred generations, be a “rebel”? And the pipsqueak redcoat officer hunting him down, who was born and raised in fu*king London–he’s not the “rebel,” he’s the forces of law and order, the rightful authorities. Quite a racket if you have the sheer, sociopathic nerve to say it with a straight face. (I’m talking to you, Mister Jeremy Brown!)

What does “rebel” mean, anyway? I’ve noticed that in English press it’s a bad word. Here it’s different, because we were the rebels in 1775 and proud of it. But see, people who know the American revolution think that the Brit policy against the Yankees, where (give or take a Banastre Tarlteton or two), the redcoats tried to avoid killing civvies, was normal Imperial policy.

Bullshit. The reason the Brits let us go, didn’t try scorched-earth on us, was that we WERE Brits, as far as they could tell: white protestant English-speaking humans. If you weren’t all of the above, you weren’t human. The only other war where English troops had the same restraint was–take a guess. Right: the English Civil War. In England, they fought clean. But when Cromwell marched up to subdue the Scots, who were Protestant (good) but non-English (bad), a lot of POWs never made it back to the holding pens, and a lot of crofts were torched, and a lot of girls were raped. When he moved from Scotland to Ireland, where the filthy locals were filthy Papist as well as non-English, well, you don’t want to know what happened there.

So in places like Sri Lanka, full of brown heathens, Brit policy had nothing to do with fu*king Yorktown. More like Dresden, only lower-tech.

The “Wasteland” policy was smart and mean at the same time–another sure mark of the Brit Imperial Touch. It was designed to deny the “rebels” support in the short term, but in the long term it was pure punishment, taking away the land, livestock and other assets of all the Sinhalese who were even suspected of being “rebel”-lovers.

And it worked. To this day, 200 years later, the Sinhalese castes who backed the rebels are dirt poor, and worse: they’re hated by everybody around them and they even hate themselves. And nobody even remembers who did it to them, poor lab rats. They think it’s their own fault, that there’s something wrong with them.

There’s more, and worse, but to tell the truth, this is making me sick. I’ve tried to tell this story a dozen times and nobody wants to know. You just end up vomiting battery acid all night, and pigs like Mister Jeremy Brown of the Times of London never lose one second of sleep over all those bodies, and all those lies and sheer nastiness. What’s the use? I’ll just fastforward through a couple of highlight shots. Take reprisals. You know, like those bad ol’ Nazis used to do after a “rebel” attack? The Brits were there way before the Nazis. They took revenge for a half-assed Kandyan revolt by killing one out of every hundred Sinhalese. Like, at random. To keep it fair, you know, not play favorites.

And then the nastiest CI weapon of all, the demographic bomb. This was a Brit specialty all over the world (see Fiji for a weirdly similar case). The Brits ran India, so they had total control over millions of obedient Tamil peasants who were starving, desperate, and ready to go anywhere, just pile into the hold of a ship and get out to cut cane or plant rice in some place that may as well have been on the Moon for all they knew.

So along with the massacre/reprisals, the Brits came up with one of their classic two-birds-one-stone plans: to neutralize the Sinhalese, let’s import huge hordes of Tamils from India! They’re cheap and docile and they’ll give the Sinhala something to keep them busy even after we have to leave the island, haw! And meanwhile they’ll drive the price of labor down even further! Brilliant, chaps, absolutely brilliant!

And they did it. Worked so well it’s still working today. And when they were done totally destroying the poor Sinhalese, the Brits did what they do best, better than any other murder gang on the planet: they took that amnesia zapper from Men in Black and zapped everyone in Sri Lanka, then turned it on themselves and were suddenly so innocent, so damn virtuous and clean, that a pig like Mister Jeremy Brown can actually sit down at a computer and boast about all the wonderful times England has raped Sri Lanka, from olden times right down to Arthur C. Clarke buggering every little boy on the island. Heckuva job, Brownie! Satan himself is shaking his head, muttering, “Gotta give it to the fu*kin’ limeys, damn it….they got no shame at all, ya gotta admire that. Damn, even I wouldn’t have had the gall to talk like that Jeremy Brown. I’m putting him down for CEO of the Hell Propagandastaffel the minute his liver packs up and he lands down here.”

OK, done. Now you can all pass around that amnesia gun.

http://exiledonline.com/when-pigs-fly-a ... sri-lanka/


It applies 100 percent to India too. And our elites sing paens to British rule and hold them in great respect.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2009 09:09 am
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Brecher has summarized his view of modern warfare as follows:

1) Most wars are asymmetrical / irregular.
2) In these wars, the guerrillas / irregulars / insurgents do NOT aim for military victory.
3) You can NOT defeat these groups by killing lots of their members. In fact, they want you to do that.
4) Hi-tech weaponry is mostly useless in these wars.
5) "Hearts and Minds," meaning propaganda and morale, are more important than military superiority.
6) Most people are not rational, they are TRIBAL: "my gang yay, your gang boo!" It really is that simple. The rest is cosmetics.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2009 09:03 pm
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X-posted...
brihaspati wrote:
The Urdu and regional language docs around the 1857 period were neglected I think primarily because of the Marxist ideological straightjacket stemming from Marx's hilarious commentary on the first "war of Independence".

Regime supported Indian historians have always felt uncomfortable with 1857. It has many connotations dangerous for all succeeding Indian regimes.

Marx's comments stifled Indian Marxist historians because they could not decide whether 1857 was "good" or "bad" - bad because it spread colonialism, and good because it overturned "feudalism", and like Alexander's supposed invasion, provided with great relief for the historians, a context and connection to the more "understood" and "comfortable" Marxist-European linear schema of historical development.

Even after Independence, GOI would be uncomfortable with the "mutiny" aspect of the the 1857 military, and I think we will recognize this discomfort even on this forum. The whole gamut of constructions of "martial races" actually based on who remained loyal to licking British boots, perhaps continues in their long shadows even on to the current system - thereby possibly causing discomfort.

The possibility of collaboration between supposedly unmergable faith communities against a GOI perceived as the common enemy is also a dangerous portent.

Then there comes the political ramifications and merry confusions on images of even current political descendants of forces who took an active role. If you focus too much on 1857 as an attempt at "liberation" against a "foreign" occupying force, what happens to the "shining-sun" Scindhia who carries the name of someone who definitely collaborated with and helped this "foreign occupying" force?

I think it should be obvious why it took a certain Savarkar to portray 1857 as a "war of independence", and what happened subsequently to that Savarkar.

Access to these Urdu records, during my attempts, were stymied because, I was not a "professional historian". I had to be "supervised" by an "acceptable professional historian" if I wanted to get access, which I refused. Western journalists, and historians ofcourse even then had easy access. But I have not seen much coming out of their pens - probably they shied away from writing what they found because it would do their regimes no good at all.

Even, recently, with the supposed Glasnost in UK historians, just try to raise two issues - the triangular Atlantic trade and its role in capital extraction and jumpstarting the so-called "industrial revolution", and the role of exploitation of child labour in British capital formation.



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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2009 04:04 am
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(Gunvant chhotalal Shah is a prolific Gujarati writer and a journalist. His column 'Network' in Gujarat Samachar is widely read and respected.)

He has taken up the job of bringing to Gujju reader the cuases of distorted history and trying to find remedies.

In his latest article of 1st July 2009 on page 11 of Gujarat Samachar, he has, in a typical gujju style blasted the AIT. Max Mueller, Macaulay, H G Wells, Moretimer Wheeler are not spared.

Many Yindoo writers and historians have realized this folly of distorted history and conspiracy to misguide Indians, especially yindoos .

Hindi writers/historians are in forefront to bring back the lost asmita.

the following books in hindi are worth read:

1) Prachin Bharat Ka Prachhan Itihas - By Arun
2) Purano mein vanshanukramik Kalakram - By Kunwarlal Vyasshishya
3) Bharat Ke Pranacharya - By Ratnakar Shastri


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2009 04:15 am
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According to Kunvarlal Vyasshishya there were:

at least 28 Vyas. Krishna Dveypayan (Ved Vyas) were the 28th
and
there were 60 prajapatis

Manu: Swyambhuv, Swarochish, Uttam, Taamas, Raivat, Chakshush, Vaivaswat

Prajapati: Bhrigu, Angira, Marichi, Pulatsya, Pulah, Kritu, Daksh, Atri, Vasishtha, Ruchi, Dharma, Nil, Lohit, Kadarm, Sheshsthanu, Pracheta, Arishtanemi, Heti, Praheti and Kashyap etc

Vyas: Parameshti, Ushna, Brihaspati, Indra, Tridhama, Tridasha, Bhardwaj, Suchakshu, Traparin, Dhananjay, Kritanjay, Gautam, Vachaspati, Trinbindu, Valmiki, shaktri, Parashar, Marukarna, Krishna Dvepayan etc.

Shraman: Rishabhdev, Neminath, Gautam, Nilkanth Buddh etc


KARA KORAM = KARTASVAR

HINDU KUSH = SINDHUKOSH


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2009 04:40 am
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ramana wrote:
X-posted...

Quote:
When Pigs Fly–and Scold: Brits Lecturing Sri Lanka!
By Gary Brecher

..........You can talk about the Nazis all day long, but for my money nothing they did was as gross as what you find out when you actually look into the history of British-Sinhalese relations.....

And to this day, they don’t catch even a little bit of Hell for it. Everybody thinks the Brits are all cute and harmless. You’re all a bunch of suckers for those suave accents, you suckers! The truth is that compared to the Brits, the Nazis you’re always yammering about were a gang of eighth-grade stoners who ran around spraypainting swastikas on school property. The Nazis lasted one decade; the Brits quietly ran their extermination programs for three hundred years, and to this day they wouldn’t even think of feeling guilty about it. Wouldn’t cross their minds.

OK, done. Now you can all pass around that amnesia gun.

http://exiledonline.com/when-pigs-fly-a ... sri-lanka/


It applies 100 percent to India too. And our elites sing paens to British rule and hold them in great respect.

Image


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 07 Jul 2009 05:27 am
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The present yindoo mindset is defensive and tryin to remain 'cloistered' as far as possible when it comes to dealing with terrorist/unkil/puki/chinki and their ilk.

but, just few decades ago there were a big lot of brave men of india who are not referred nowadays anymore, it will be appropriate to just refer them here, especially thest two great gujju bhais who took battle to enemies land and systematically organized resistance and more:

Shyamji Krishna Verma

Sardar Singh Rewabhai Rana

they not merely organized a resistance movement in many places of europe for free Bharat, they also put their own hard earned money to serve bharat mata, started scholarship with their own money and supported other Uddam vaadi Freedom Fighters in whatever way they could.

Jay Ho!


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2009 01:06 pm
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Here comes reverse AIT ,again from west :D
Quote:
"Who are these people?" asks the man behind the counter in the photo store in Southall, an area also known as London's Little India.

He is handing over my order: a hefty pile of colour photographs, of which a picture of two Roma women and their children (above) is the first.

"They look just like the Banjara in Rajasthan - that's where I come from," he says.

He points to a beautiful print on the wall, showing a glamorous group of female Banjara dancers.

The similarity is striking.

Historians agree that the Roma's origins lie in north-west India and that their journey towards Europe started between the 3rd and 7th Centuries AD - a massive migration prompted by timeless reasons: conflicts, instability and the seeking of a better life in big cities such as Tehran, Baghdad and, later on, Constantinople.

Some of these Indian immigrant workers were farmers, herdsmen, traders, mercenaries or book-keepers. Others were entertainers and musicians.

They settled in the Middle East, calling themselves Dom, a word meaning "man".


Post-war European governments on both sides of the Iron Curtain denied the Roma Holocaust survivors any recognition or aid

To this day they retain their name and speak a language related to Sanskrit.

Large numbers moved into Europe, where the D, which was anyway pronounced with the tongue curled up, became an R, giving the word Rom. Today's European Roma (the plural of Rom) are their descendants.

'Untouchables'

Maybe because they were carrying customs and memories connected to their Hindu gods, the Roma were regarded as heathens in Byzantium and were assimilated into a heretic sect: "the Untouchables" or Atsingani. This designation is the root of the words used for "Gypsy" in most European languages, such as the French "Tzigane" and the German "Zigeuner".

By the 14th Century, journeying further into Europe, perhaps fleeing the Turks or perhaps the plague, the Atsingani were to be found in Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece.

Roma workman
Roma have worked as coppersmiths possibly since the "Persian period"

They worked on the land or as craftsmen but in two Romanian principalities, Wallachia and Moldova, they were pushed into slavery and feature prominently in property deeds.

About a century later the Roma fled towards Ukraine and Russia.

Some presented themselves as pilgrims or penitents, and like any such group wandering throughout Europe during that era they were given aid or shelter.

This welcoming attitude changed dramatically around the year 1500.

Historians believe this might have happened because the numbers of the immigrants grew bigger, but they also were seen as spies for the Turks, and consequently hunted and killed by decree.

This led to what some historians dub "the first Roma genocide" - a period of fierce repression.

There were hangings and expulsions in England; branding and the shaving of heads in France; severing of the left ear of Roma women in Moravia, and of the right one in Bohemia.

Following these expulsions and killings, large groups of Roma travelled back East, towards Poland, which was more tolerant.

Russia was also a place where the Roma were treated less heavy-handedly, notably being allowed to retain nomadic or semi-nomadic ways of living, as long as they paid the annual taxes - the "obrok".

Children removed

In contrast, the policy of the West, especially during the Age of Enlightenment was to "civilise" the Roma through brutal forced assimilation.

The repression included: 24 strokes of the cane for the use of the "Gypsy language"; forbidding Roma to marry among themselves; restricting the numbers of Roma musicians; taking away children as young as four years old from their parents and distributing them among the neighbouring towns, "at least every two years".

Holocaust survivor
Roma families were among the first victims of the Holocaust

In some cases these policies did force Roma to become assimilated. But many took to the road again.

The persecutions culminated in the Holocaust, or Porajmos - "the Devouring" - as it is called in Romany.

The Roma found themselves among the first victims of Nazi policies.

They were sent to die in the gas vans of Chelmno, and were subjected to gruesome experiments in the extermination camps.

Up to 500,000 Roma are believed to have been killed under fascist rule.

Poverty-stricken

Yet post-war European governments on both sides of the Iron Curtain denied the Roma Holocaust survivors any recognition or aid.

In the communist bloc some managed to reach the modest living standards of the era, most often at the price of giving up their language and identity, while the majority of Roma continued to lead poverty stricken lives on the margins of society.

In many cases there were special policies towards Roma, including coerced sterilisation (Czechoslovakia) or forcing them to change their names and hiding their dwellings behind concrete walls (Bulgaria).

The demise of the communist regimes in 1989 in Central and Eastern Europe was followed by an upsurge of anti-Roma violence in almost every country.

Today, six million out of the estimated 10 million European Roma live in Central and Eastern Europe.

Up to two million are to be found in Romania, whose established Roma slave markets horrified Western travellers until as late as the 19th Century.

Decades of communism and the recent admission of Eastern countries into the EU seem to have made little difference to their history of exclusion and poverty.

Most Roma families live in small shacks with no electricity or running water, and international institutions calculate that Roma poverty rates are up to 10 times higher than those of the majority population where they live, while their lifespan is 10 or 15 years lower.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2009 11:12 pm
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Bitter secular-intellectual family feud over Nehru Memorial

Quote:
For historians, the Nehru Memorial Museum and Library in Delhi has been an institution of unique importance. Many of the most distinguished have been Fellows here, even more put in hours in the library as young researchers. And 57 of them have put their names to a letter asking the Prime Minister — who, as Culture Minister, supervises the NMML — to intervene in its functioning claiming the centre has “precipitously declined.”

With signatories like Partha Chatterjee, Sumit Sarkar, Mushirul Hasan, Geeta Kapur, Veena Das, and Sanjay Subrahmanyam, the letter has set off a storm in the intellectual establishment. More so, as it comes just weeks before the end of the term of NMML director, historian Mridula Mukherjee.

The signatories, unofficially led by historian Ramachandra Guha, want Mukherjee, and the “particular faction of a particular department of a particular university in New Delhi” — insiders’ code for the moderate, Congress-loving section of the Left in JNU’s History department — out.
...


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2009 01:33 am
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Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!
ramana ji, do you think there is an appropriate thread on BR for discussing the romani people ?
I'm sure you are more than aware of the dharmic and strategic implications.


FYI, http://www.cybacity.com/romaniforum/
http://www.experienceproject.com/group_ ... =18744&s=d


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2009 07:47 am
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One question that kept haunting me was , whether the Hindu empire in the south ended with Battle of Talikota? But that is not so. It seems the Vijayanagar empire continued till the mid 17th century. Though plagued with wars , they were able to face off and many times defeat the Bijapur sultans. Note that the successor of Aliya Rama Raya (Rama Raya was killed in Talikota in 1565) defeated the Bijapur sultan in 1567. Now this does not get mentioned in our sickular history in schools and colleges.
Also there were many heroes like Yechamma Nayaka,Venkatapati Deva raya etc . (People from Karnataka would note that there was a movie called "Vijayanagarada Veera Putra" meaning The warrior son of Vijayanagar, which is a true story post Talikota).
How many of us have heard of Battle of Pennar where more 50000 Bijapur troops were killed?
Also there are phases of betrayal, treacherousness, peace for almost 100 years after talikota.
If BR historians have more info , thoughts(other than wikepedia) or links to get to the source, please let us know


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2009 04:26 pm
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rkirankr wrote:
One question that kept haunting me was , whether the Hindu empire in the south ended with Battle of Talikota? But that is not so. It seems the Vijayanagar empire continued till the mid 17th century. Though plagued with wars , they were able to face off and many times defeat the Bijapur sultans. Note that the successor of Aliya Rama Raya (Rama Raya was killed in Talikota in 1565) defeated the Bijapur sultan in 1567. Now this does not get mentioned in our sickular history in schools and colleges.
Also there were many heroes like Yechamma Nayaka,Venkatapati Deva raya etc . (People from Karnataka would note that there was a movie called "Vijayanagarada Veera Putra" meaning The warrior son of Vijayanagar, which is a true story post Talikota).
How many of us have heard of Battle of Pennar where more 50000 Bijapur troops were killed?
Also there are phases of betrayal, treacherousness, peace for almost 100 years after talikota.
If BR historians have more info , thoughts(other than wikepedia) or links to get to the source, please let us know



On India Forum this topic was explored some time ago:

The reign of Ramaraya and Battle of Talikota


and refer to this thread also:
Medieval Hisotry of India thread.

Also think of how groups of people act and not as individuals. And the fact that a nation identity is a modern construct.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2009 04:30 pm
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Rahul M wrote:
ramana ji, do you think there is an appropriate thread on BR for discussing the romani people ?
I'm sure you are more than aware of the dharmic and strategic implications.


FYI, http://www.cybacity.com/romaniforum/
http://www.experienceproject.com/group_ ... =18744&s=d



For starter please start a new thread.

I first came up on Indian origin of Gypsies/Roma people in the appendix of A.L. Basham's "The Glory that was India" which gives a good description to come to the conculsion.

In Telugu wandering entertainers are called "Dommaris". So Roma are in and out of India. I dont know their status in modern India.


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2009 03:01 pm
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ramana wrote:
rkirankr wrote:
One question that kept haunting me was , whether the Hindu empire in the south ended with Battle of Talikota? But that is not so. It seems the Vijayanagar empire continued till the mid 17th century. Though plagued with wars , they were able to face off and many times defeat the Bijapur sultans. Note that the successor of Aliya Rama Raya (Rama Raya was killed in Talikota in 1565) defeated the Bijapur sultan in 1567. Now this does not get mentioned in our sickular history in schools and colleges.
Also there were many heroes like Yechamma Nayaka,Venkatapati Deva raya etc . (People from Karnataka would note that there was a movie called "Vijayanagarada Veera Putra" meaning The warrior son of Vijayanagar, which is a true story post Talikota).
How many of us have heard of Battle of Pennar where more 50000 Bijapur troops were killed?
Also there are phases of betrayal, treacherousness, peace for almost 100 years after talikota.
If BR historians have more info , thoughts(other than wikepedia) or links to get to the source, please let us know



On India Forum this topic was explored some time ago:

The reign of Ramaraya and Battle of Talikota


and refer to this thread also:
Medieval Hisotry of India thread.

Also think of how groups of people act and not as individuals. And the fact that a nation identity is a modern construct.



Having a capital so close to border is always dangerous.. vijaynagar is the glaring example of that...


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2009 03:45 am
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Anyone read the book Royal Gurjars by Naunihal Singh?


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 02 Aug 2009 04:50 pm
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X-posted....


The Paleolithic Indo-Europeans




1.
Back in the days when J.R.R. Tolkien was studying what was then called philology, the history of Indo-European was seen as the key to a remote and romantic era, a time of of great migrations and epic conquests. That sweeping vision of past glories was what first attracted me to historical linguistics as well.

It was taken for granted in the early 20th century that the prehistoric past could best be understood in terms of warfare and colonization, just like the present. Wherever archaeological evidence suggested a change in culture, the assumption was that one people had replaced another -- or, at the very least, had subjugated another and become their rulers. And the wide distribution of certain language families was taken to mean that their original speakers had been particularly powerful and ruthless warlords.

In particular, the presence of Indo-European languages everywhere from England to India was assumed to have been a product of the invention of horse-chariot technology shortly after 2000 BC. The original Indo-Europeans were imagined as a horde of aristocratic Bronze Age warriors who came hurtling out of the steppes, overwhelming the simple peasant cultures of Europe and even toppling the supposedly decadent high civilization of the Indus Valley.

Despite its troubling racist overtones, that point of view was still dominant when I went to college in the 1960's. However, by the 1970's it had started to lose ground. I remember being particularly startled when I read a book called Bronze Age migrations in the Aegean; archaeological and linguistic problems in Greek prehistory (1973) and discovered that there hadn't actually been very much Bronze Age migration in the Aegean. Even the Mycenaeans -- who had previously been considered a prime example of invading Indo-European chariot-warriors -- were now reassessed as a purely local development.

That reassessment created real problems. If the ancestors of the Myceneans were already living in Greece by 2300 BC -- before the invention of the horse-chariot -- they could not have arrived as horse-chariot warriors. And if the chariot-warrior explanation of Indo-European expansion no longer held true for the Greeks, then perhaps it no longer held true anywhere.

So what was the secret of the Indo-Europeans? If they were not the masters of an irresistible new form of military technology, then just what was the special advantage that had enabled them to expand so dramatically?

By the 1980's, it was also becoming clear that the conventional date for the Indo-European migration had to be off by not merely a few centuries, but thousands of years. The earliest known Indo-European languages -- Mycenaean Greek, Hittite, and Sanskrit -- were already far more divergent in the second millennium BC than the offshoots of Latin, such as French and Italian, are today. This suggested that their common ancestor must have been spoken not around 3000 BC, as formerly assumed, but well back in the Neolithic.

Such a radical redating suggested an equally radical solution to the problem of Indo-European dispersion. The central premise of this new hypothesis, as presented by Colin Renfrew in Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins (1988), was that the secret of the Indo-Europeans was agriculture. They were, he argued, the people who originally brought the Neolithic to Europe from Anatolia. It was not force of arms but rather the ability of farming to support a greater population that had enabled them to outbreed and eventually absorb the small Mesolithic hunting bands.

This new scenario seemed both plausible and exciting. Not only did it greatly expand the historical depth of Indo-European linguistics, but its image of peaceful agriculturalists generously accepting more primitive hunters into their society was very much in tune with the political biases of the time. Although Renfrew's suggestion of Anatolia as the Indo-European homeland was never universally accepted, it did seem as though a Neolithic hypothesis of some sort would ultimately provide the best solution to the puzzle.

However, in recent years, the agriculturalist theory has been undermined in turn by the hard facts of genetic analysis. It seems that the Neolithic farmers who entered Europe from the Near East and North Africa were the source of no more than 20% of present-day European DNA, with the other 80% going back to the Paleolithic. Apparently the farming folk, rather than multiplying rapidly and assimilating small bands of primitive hunters, were themselves the ones who were assimilated. And, as Renfrew himself had pointed out, except in the special case of imperial conquest -- which was unknown before the rise of civilization -- it is unheard of for the language of a limited number of intruders to supplant that of the natives.

The DNA evidence also creates problems for the alternative theory that Indo-European was originally the language of certain inhabitants of the Balkans, who acquired agriculture from the east at an early date and spread it throughout the rest of Europe. It seems that Europeans just haven't moved around very much since they reoccupied the northern part of the continent at the end of the Ice Age. For example, when a nine thousand year old skeleton from Cheddar, England was subjected to DNA testing in 1997, it turned out that a local schoolteacher was an almost direct descendent.

In light of the DNA evidence, it is now being acknowledged that all the earliest agricultural societies in Europe show considerable similarity to the non-farming cultures that preceded them. It seems like an obvious conclusion that if there was both genetic continuity and cultural continuity during this major transition, there must have been linguistic continuity as well.

But if the spread of Indo-European can no longer be attributed to either Bronze Age conquest or Neolithic population replacement, what does account for it? The more precise our knowledge of DNA patterns grows, the harder it is to fit an Indo-European migration in anywhere. Indo-European has been reduced to a kind of ghostly presence, with no firm ties to either history, archaeology, or genetics. Instead of being the essential key to the thought and actions of past times, it has become an irrelevance -- almost an embarrassment.

http://www.enter.net/~torve/trogholm/wo ... pean1.html


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Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
PostPosted: 02 Aug 2009 05:28 pm
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Quote:
But if the spread of Indo-European can no longer be attributed to either Bronze Age conquest or Neolithic population replacement, what does account for it? The more precise our knowledge of DNA patterns grows, the harder it is to fit an Indo-European migration in anywhere.

:-?
hmmm, but that doesn't explain the language similarities does it ?

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