page6

RaviBg	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 11 Jan 2009 04:18 am
BRFite Joined: 26 Mar 2002 07:01 am Posts: 1328 Location: Under the toddy tree drinking milk	Ramana, none of the links work as they appear to be truncated. Is it possible to the actual links to the various news articles?
Top

ramana	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 11 Jan 2009 04:57 am
Forum Moderator Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 7269	RaviBg wrote: Ramana, none of the links work as they appear to be truncated. Is it possible to the actual links to the various news articles? most of them worked for me. Try this thread with regular updates! India- Forum thread and Asian Age link
Top

ramana	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 11 Jan 2009 05:09 am
Forum Moderator Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 7269	JE Menon wrote: Congratulations Kaushal. Keep fighting the good fight and more power to you JEM, Its even more commendable that he had the vision to provide a platform for over 100 historians and interested people right in the lions den _India Intl center in Delhi so close to teh johlawala brigade headqtrs! hats off for envisioning it and carrying it thru. Quite few BRF members have pulled thru to see this happen.
Top

Prem	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 11 Jan 2009 05:18 am
BRFite Joined: 01 Jul 1999 06:01 am Posts: 1197 Location: JANAZA E PAKISTAN	Ramana Ji, Thanks for update. That is no lion's den but Jackal's cave as the soulless EHs of India feed on dead bodies of their own countrmen. Lets hope Kaushal efforts culminates and his mission reach to logical conclusion. Great of him to give Thappar to Thapar.
Top

ramana	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 11 Jan 2009 06:05 am
Forum Moderator Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 7269	Prem you are right. it s jackal's nest! Meanwhile Google Cache on the Conf
Top

ramana	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 11 Jan 2009 07:04 am
Forum Moderator Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 7269	Kindered spirits for us Intl forum for India's heritage Nice essays. Look at the founders!
Top

Arun_S	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 11 Jan 2009 07:21 am
Webmaster BR Joined: 14 Jun 2000 06:01 am Posts: 2470 Location: KhyberDurra	ramana wrote: JE Menon wrote: Congratulations Kaushal. Keep fighting the good fight and more power to you JEM, Its even more commendable that he had the vision to provide a platform for over 100 historians and interested people right in the lions den _India Intl center in Delhi so close to teh johlawala brigade headqtrs! hats off for envisioning it and carrying it thru. Quite few BRF members have pulled thru to see this happen. My salute to Guru Dr.Kaushal Vepa. I feel good to be associated with this project. And thanks to all BRF'ites who pitched in to make it a reality and make it successful. We need more little lamps that can be lit by the lamp that Dr.Kaushal is.
Top

nsriram	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 12 Jan 2009 03:20 pm
BRFite -Trainee Joined: 16 Jan 2005 08:35 am Posts: 29	http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41.asp ... we_the.asp is an essay by Rajiv Malhotra on Indian identity We, The Nation(s) Of India India breathes through her multiplicity, not her fragmenting voices RAJIV MALHOTRA THERE IS a buzz about India becoming a superpower. But, are superpowers confused about national identity or inviting others to solve their civilisation’s “backwardness”? Does a superpower allow foreign nexuses to co-opt its citizens as agents? India graciously hosts foreign nexuses that treat it as a collection of disparate parts. Is super - powerdom delusionary? The Mumbai massacre painfully exposes flaws in our national character, the central one being the absence of a definitive, purpose-filled identity. Who is that “we” whose interests are represented, internally and internationally? How should Indianness be defined? Where is the Indianness that transcends narrow identities and vested interests, one that is worth sacrificing for? Is it in the popular culture of Bollywood and cricket? Or is it deeper? The national identity project is at once urgent and compelling. ...
Top

Rahul M	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 13 Jan 2009 01:04 am
Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Aug 2005 03:39 pm Posts: 3510 Location: aadim kaler chandim him, todaye bandha ghorar dim !!	Quote: Maybe i am wrong but in my limited reading of Indian history , i haven't come across any reference where substantial revenues were drawn from overseas trade & other businesses with exception perhaps of Cholas . http://www.infinityfoundation.com/manda ... ameset.htm Quote: Given the high quality of Indic products at this time, it is of no surprise that they were widely disseminated through trade. Indic-Saraswati artifacts are distributed throughout South Asia, indicating that the Indus Valley civilization traded with its immediate neighbors. There is also evidence of long distance overland trade, such as the presence in India of raw materials, such as lapis lazuli, found only inland in regions such as Iran and Central Asia. (See Allchin and Allchin 1997, pp. 176 f.) The Indus Valley civilization also developed a sea trade with the cities of Mesopotamia, where Indus Valley goods were prized. This sea trade connected West India with West Asia going back to at least 2000 BCE. [11] This is indicated both by the large number of Indus Valley products unearthed at Mesopotamia sites, as well as by repeated inscriptions found there referring to the men and ships of "Meluhha", a term now which is now recognized as referring to the Indus Valley region. (Allchin and Allchin 1997:177) This trade, while no doubt declining when the Indus valley sites were abandoned due to climatic changes, probably never disappeared entirely. It probably continued even into the historical period, albeit with interruptions, as Singh has suggested (in his 1961 article) on the basis of early textual materials. Quote: During the Roman period there was a brisk sea trade between India and Rome, mainly in spices and valuable trade items. Many of these Indian goods were known to Romans such as Pliny, who recognized them as being of Indian origin. (See Karttunen 1997, pp. 148-49) By the Roman era the pattern that came to dominate trans-Eurasian trade for the next two millennia was well established. This pattern was one of trade imbalance, in which the goods produced in India and Southern Asia were highly valued by peoples in the more northern and western parts of the continent, who were unable in turn to produce goods in sufficient quantity or quality to offset this imbalance. Throughout the ages the trading connections between Europe and Asia have been based on the Europeans' desire to obtain the luxury products of the East. Thus trade involved goods that were light in weight but high in price. The products given in exchange by the Europeans consisted partly of textiles, metal goods and the like, but also to a significant extent of precious metals in uncoined and above all in coined forms. (Attman 1981:8) Pliny commented on the Roman trade with India, and on the sizable trade imbalance made up by the export to India of silver coins. This report has been verified through the discovery of large hoards of Roman silver coins throught South Asia. (Attman 1981:8)
Top

gandharva	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 13 Jan 2009 09:27 pm
BRFite Joined: 30 Jan 2008 05:52 pm Posts: 159	World Peace - Challenges and Impact of Globalization http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6836&hl=en Watch RAjiv Malhotra from 23:11 onwards.
Top

ramana	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 16 Jan 2009 09:39 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 7269	its important to bring out the fact that the history of India as is known during the colonial period was written by non historians- like William Jones, Percvial Spear, Pendrel Moon who were all in some form of company or govt service. In fact hisotry of India wrtieen by the british was mostly written by non historians and this is accepted as gospel by the post Independence historains of the Thaparite school both in and outside India. So its disingenous to claim as Witzel is claiming that the current history conf in Delhi was by mosly non-historians.
Top

brihaspati	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 16 Jan 2009 11:09 pm
BRFite Joined: 18 Nov 2008 09:55 pm Posts: 1593	Witzel, should be asked, why is he so concerned about "non-historians" themselves - he can simply prove the claims of this non-historians wrong - is he scared of doing so?
Top

shyam	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 17 Jan 2009 05:25 am
BRFite Joined: 29 Jul 2003 06:01 am Posts: 202	Because these non-historians start questioning basic axioms of history, such as AIT What will happen to Physics if some non-physists start questioning Newton's laws or laws of thermodynamics.
Top

vera_k	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 17 Jan 2009 07:30 am
BRFite Joined: 20 Nov 2006 08:15 am Posts: 401	shyam wrote: What will happen to Physics if some non-physists start questioning Newton's laws or laws of thermodynamics. Nothing will happen to Physics. Disagreement will stop when non-physicists when attempt to demonstrate how Newton's laws are invalid .
Top

brihaspati	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 17 Jan 2009 01:37 pm
BRFite Joined: 18 Nov 2008 09:55 pm Posts: 1593	Quote: shyam wrote: What will happen to Physics if some non-physists start questioning Newton's laws or laws of thermodynamics. Nothing will happen to Physics. Disagreement will stop when non-physicists when attempt to demonstrate how Newton's laws are invalid . Newton's laws and laws of thermodynamics can become invalid in certain theoretically possible space-times. The main difference between historians and physicists is that the latter accept that current theory is falsifiable, and current theory is only acceptable until it is not proven explicitly wrong. Physics does not rule out the possibility that current theory may after all prove to be wrong in some future time. Historians, especially of the Thaparite type, deny this very essential scientific component - for they claim that what they claim is never falsifiable at all.
Top

vera_k	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 17 Jan 2009 06:33 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Nov 2006 08:15 am Posts: 401	brihaspati wrote: Physics does not rule out the possibility that current theory may after all prove to be wrong in some future time. Historians, especially of the Thaparite type, deny this very essential scientific component - for they claim that what they claim is never falsifiable at all. So they are fundamentalist historians in the sense that they strictly adhere to their basic principles. They should be referred to as AIT fundamentalists.
Top

Acharya	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 17 Jan 2009 07:04 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 09 Feb 1999 07:01 am Posts: 4081	brihaspati wrote: Witzel, should be asked, why is he so concerned about "non-historians" themselves - he can simply prove the claims of this non-historians wrong - is he scared of doing so? Indology is a private group doing its own interpretation of India. There is no reason for Indians to follow this group. Indians have been fooled into thinking that this group is an expert group on India and Hinduism. Comments from Witzel should be ignored. He is a hack and not an expert. He was caught with mistakes in sanskrit translation.
Top

Abhi_G	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 17 Jan 2009 07:42 pm
BRFite Joined: 13 Aug 2008 04:12 pm Posts: 180	Acharya wrote: Comments from Witzel should be ignored. He is a hack and not an expert. He was caught with mistakes in sanskrit translation. Sociology studies from the west (e.g., Harvard) needs to be looked upon with full suspicion and caution. These institutions propagate the colonial versions.
Top

surinder	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 17 Jan 2009 08:42 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 457 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Can I ask a question: Why not counter the distorted history in the following manner: Re write history books with the correct history, ignoring the biased account. Don't bother to counter the biased accounts because by doing so you only strengthen it. Spread those books far and wide. Have many writers such books. Pretty soon, no one in India would even know the wrong history. Problem solved. We are 1.1 Billion people, if we refuse to beleive a particular version (the wrong one) then it is as good as dead. Don't give any time to any of the wrong historians. What is wrong with this approach?
Top

Acharya	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 17 Jan 2009 09:58 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 09 Feb 1999 07:01 am Posts: 4081	surinder wrote: Can I ask a question: Why not counter the distorted history in the following manner: Re write history books with the correct history, ignoring the biased account. Don't bother to counter the biased accounts because by doing so you only strengthen it. Spread those books far and wide. Have many writers such books. Pretty soon, no one in India would even know the wrong history. Problem solved. We are 1.1 Billion people, if we refuse to beleive a particular version (the wrong one) then it is as good as dead. Don't give any time to any of the wrong historians. What is wrong with this approach? It is already being done. http://voiceofdharma.org/ is one of them, The real problem is the Indology group has the political power and the media power and large number of elite Indian subscribe to this group. Half of the Indian elite do not know that they are fooled into believing this Indology group. They follow this external group since this is gateway to money, connection and political power inside India. This group was the gateway to western connection and western business dealings. This group has the support of the Christian evangelists, Vatican and power brokers. This power of advantage is being eroded from 2000 and this Indology group is doing a last attack on the India in the CA textbook controversy. Congress party was traditionally the supporter of this Indology group, the leftist, communists and now the Indian christians and Muslims also support this intellectual group. This intellectual group has to be broken and made insignificant.
Top

ShauryaT	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 17 Jan 2009 10:02 pm
BRFite Joined: 31 Oct 2005 12:36 am Posts: 936	Acharya wrote: This intellectual group has to be broken and made insignificant. Can be done easily, if new Indian money is used for the purpose. One example is Rajiv Malhotra, who is a successful entrepreneur and seeks to change the dynamics. Check his infinity foundation for ideas on how he is doing it.
Top

Acharya	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 17 Jan 2009 10:20 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 09 Feb 1999 07:01 am Posts: 4081	ShauryaT wrote: Acharya wrote: This intellectual group has to be broken and made insignificant. Can be done easily, if new Indian money is used for the purpose. One example is Rajiv Malhotra, who is a successful entrepreneur and seeks to change the dynamics. Check his infinity foundation for ideas on how he is doing it. Yes It is the question of money and political power between the two side. Who has the most will dominate. One person Rajiv Malhotra and his foundation cannot make a dent. We need state institutions. The other side, Indology has the support of Rockefeller foundation and is promoted in Oxford, Cambridge, Columbia, Cornell, U Chicago, Denver, Berkeley. This is actually the entire US govt and US military which has a vested interest in this The real focus should be the Indian elite and Indian education system which needs to return to the true roots and cultural history of India. There is a book which discusses all this topic
Top

ShauryaT	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 17 Jan 2009 10:33 pm
BRFite Joined: 31 Oct 2005 12:36 am Posts: 936	Acharya wrote: We need state institutions. No doubt, and I think the social and political forces needed are in place. What is needed is the $$ muscle. Once that is in place, the views of the DIE will automatically shift. Quote: There is a book which discusses all this topic Which one?
Top

Acharya	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 17 Jan 2009 11:13 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 09 Feb 1999 07:01 am Posts: 4081	ShauryaT wrote: Quote: There is a book which discusses all this topic Which one? http://indiaresearch.org/India_at_Strat ... _eBook.pdf Check the chapter on education
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 18 Jan 2009 07:09 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	A lot of the arm chair historians talk about these people or those people not following the teachings in the Mahabharata or current politicians who don't know their history/culture. Far too often, we don't actually read our scriptures, except for the Upanishads and Puranas which are much shorter. But no one reads the Mahabharata because it hasn't been well translated into vernacular languages or English and we can't get a first hand account, but must rely on second hand pundits. What we know comes from stories people told us, Amar Chitra Katha, family members when we were younger, etc. The next passage from MahabharataOnline.com is from Bhisma while he is on the bed of arrows. The Pandavas assemble around him and Yudhisthira asks him about how a king should act and Bhisma replies by talking about dandaniti (the science of governance), which is a word Chanakya would later take up in his Arthashastra. Read it; it explains so much. --- K.M Ganguli translation Shanti Parva - Section 67 Yudhishthira said, 'Thou hast said what the duties are of the four modes of the life and the four orders. Tell me now, O grandsire, what are the principal duties of a kingdom.' "Bhishma said, 'The (election and) coronation of a king is the first duty of a kingdom. A kingdom in which anarchy prevails becomes weak and is soon afflicted by robbers. 1 In kingdoms torn by anarchy, righteousness cannot dwell. The inhabitants devour one another. An anarchy is the worst possible of states. The Srutis declare that in crowning a king, it is Indra that is crowned (in the person of the king). A person who is desirous of prosperity should worship the king as he should worship Indra himself (Divine rule is something I never thought existed in India, but there are numerous examples of people who completely disregard this. Equating scripture as the cause of something in the real world is dangerous because not everyone was well read - Me). No one should dwell in kingdoms torn by anarchy. Agni does not convey (to the gods) the libations that are poured upon him in kingdoms where anarchy prevails. If a powerful king approaches kingdoms weakened by anarchy[b], from desire of annexing them to his dominions, [b]the people should go forward and receive the invader with respect. Some conduct would be consistent with wise counsels. There is no evil greater than anarchy. If the powerful invader be inclined to equity, everything will be right. If, on the other hand, he be engaged, he may exterminate all. That cow which cannot be easily milked has to suffer much torture. On the other hand, that cow which is capable of being easily milked, has not to suffer any torture whatever. The wood that bends easily does not require to be heated. The tree that bends easily, has not to suffer any torture (at the hands of the gardener). Guided by these instances, O hero, men should bend before those that are powerful. The man that bends his head to a powerful person really bends his head to Indra. --- As am sure many might conclude (perhaps wrongly), we can derive all of our failures past and present to this nonsense! Not only does Bhisma say earlier that Shudras cannot read the Vedas and must be subservient to everyone else (or receive punishment), he also ironically states the aforementioned passage. It seems odd to me that he would say something like that during the war. If the Pandavas had taken his counsel, they wouldn't have even bothered to fight the war since they were severely outnumbered.
Top

RaviBg	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 18 Jan 2009 07:20 pm
BRFite Joined: 26 Mar 2002 07:01 am Posts: 1328 Location: Under the toddy tree drinking milk	Keshav wrote: It seems odd to me that he would say something like that during the war. If the Pandavas had taken his counsel, they wouldn't have even bothered to fight the war since they were severely outnumbered. Getting way OT here, but being outnumbered doesn't necessarily mean that the other side is powerful. There are multiple instances where a smaller army has defeated a much larger one, and the pandavas themselves were very powerful. Remember that Bhima by himself is supposed to have destroyed six akshaunis of the kauravas The pandavas were aware of their strengths, and they knew that dharma was on their side ( Lord Krishna himself). And I would take Bhishma's comments in the overall context of a weak king ruling over an anarchy-ridden kingdom being invaded by powerful king.
Top

brihaspati	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 18 Jan 2009 08:01 pm
BRFite Joined: 18 Nov 2008 09:55 pm Posts: 1593	Quote: As am sure many might conclude (perhaps wrongly), we can derive all of our failures past and present to this nonsense! Not only does Bhisma say earlier that Shudras cannot read the Vedas and must be subservient to everyone else (or receive punishment), he also ironically states the aforementioned passage. It seems odd to me that he would say something like that during the war. If the Pandavas had taken his counsel, they wouldn't have even bothered to fight the war since they were severely outnumbered. Bhisma has never been shown to be an ideal - he is a fractured man with immense faults. He tolerates assault on Draupadi in open court, and agrees to lead the Kuru forces. He had already shown that he was not a statesman, and was not following the example of Bharata (in choosing to give up the throne and wait for an uncertain future - what if Santanu did not have any more sons?)- for Bharata had chosen succession not on biological affinities but as what would be better for the "state" and dispossesed hiw own son. Bhisma had abducted women from Shayamvara and refused to marry them as required by the very custom he was abducting them by. It is worthwhile to see that the author(s) of the epic have not shied away from explicitly painting all the faults of "great" characters, and tried to show their "fall" as well - taking care to try and balance out "faults" and "penalties". And after all, these are two of the greatest "duds" in the epic - egoistic, idealistic to high orders of stupidity, throwing the whole of society and their followers into jeopardy by their unthinking actions and egos. No wonder one is giving sermons from a bed of arrows (realistically any b******* could come out in that state) and the other has simply taken a break from riding on the tactical and military shoulders of Krishna and Arjuna. After all the whole devastating war would not have taken place if he did not have that monumentally stupid head on his shoulders that gave priority to his self (his "given word") over that of the good of his "people". You can find parallels in some of our more modern "leaders". This is called getting bogged down in details and not capturing the essence.
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 18 Jan 2009 08:14 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	RaviBg wrote: Getting way OT here, but being outnumbered doesn't necessarily mean that the other side is powerful. There are multiple instances where a smaller army has defeated a much larger one, and the pandavas themselves were very powerful. Such comments can only be made in retrospect. Before the war ends, you can't be absolutely sure that you're going to win as you correctly observed. But by Bhishma's logic, the Pandavas, who were numerically at a loss should have "bent". Seems like bad logic (and bad dharma) coming from someone who himself was unable to reconcile his loyalty to his kingdom with his dharma as a human being. People like Shivaji, who Hindus consider a hero, was a hero exactly because he completely disregarded this part of his scriptures. That tells you something. Quote: The pandavas were aware of their strengths, and they knew that dharma was on their side ( Lord Krishna himself). And I would take Bhishma's comments in the overall context of a weak king ruling over an anarchy-ridden kingdom being invaded by powerful king. Ironically, the Pandavas didn't need that lesson. More than Bhishma, Krishna, whose life is mainly a contradiction of Bhisma's teachings, was willing to become Duryodhana's vassal in order to prevent war. When Krishna goes to D's court in a bid to prevent the war, he says that the Pandavas will be content to place Dhrithirasthra as the king and D as the heir apparent.
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 18 Jan 2009 08:17 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	brihaspatiji wrote: This is called getting bogged down in details and not capturing the essence. Getting bogged down in details is the reality of things. What was Bush doing when he said we were invading Iraq (we Americans, that is) - oh, WMD, Saddam, don't worry about the details. Mission Accomplished. Plus, I love these types of discussions. The duryodhan is in the details.
Top

Abhi_G	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 18 Jan 2009 08:22 pm
BRFite Joined: 13 Aug 2008 04:12 pm Posts: 180	Keshav wrote: More than Bhishma, Krishna, whose life is mainly a contradiction of Bhisma's teachings, was willing to become Duryodhana's vassal in order to prevent war. When Krishna goes to D's court in a bid to prevent the war, he says that the Pandavas will be content to place Dhrithirasthra as the king and D as the heir apparent. Krishna went as a "messenger for Yudhisthir" and conveyed Yudhisthir's message that the Pandavas would be happy to have 7 villages only. Krishna did not try to make peace on his own, he merely acted as an emissary. Also they had acted according to the sama, dama, bheda and danda principle. And also we have to remember that this was a battle between cousins, so it was a last resort effort.
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 18 Jan 2009 08:40 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	Abhi_G wrote: Krishna went as a "messenger for Yudhisthir" and conveyed Yudhisthir's message that the Pandavas would be happy to have 7 villages only. Krishna did not try to make peace on his own, he merely acted as an emissary. Also they had acted according to the sama, dama, bheda and danda principle. And also we have to remember that this was a battle between cousins, so it was a last resort effort. Despite just being an emissary, Krishna agrees with the mission. After all, as he says to Duryodhana and Arjuna, he sees both of them as his brothers, so he refused to fight. Krishna may not have agreed to the 7 villages, but he was willing to make the Pandavas vassals to Duryodhana to prevent war. It may have been a war between cousins, but according to the story, the whole of Bharat took sides on the issue, so when Arjuna tells Krishna that he doesn't want to fight, he's genuinely worried about those outside his gene pool. Ultimately, this whole discussion is sort of an exercise as to what degree their thinking affected our ancestors and affects us today. In a way, the epic has not affected our culture, but instead, the characters were very Indian in their thinking and the epic is simply a mirror to our ways today and how we essentially have not changed.
Top

brihaspati	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 18 Jan 2009 09:05 pm
BRFite Joined: 18 Nov 2008 09:55 pm Posts: 1593	Quote: Getting bogged down in details is the reality of things This is what micromanaging religions claim - and try to impose preposterous and irrelevant items becuase of the "details" mentioned in this or that text. We don't need to walk that way. If Bhisma is A's favourite because it helps A to to feel good about rejecting the baby with the bathwater - then thats okay. If on the other hand, "the survey of the battlefield" of the Mahabharatam, better known as Geeta, provides elements that help people to feel good about taking "action", (and ignoring specifics along lines of Bhisma's "arrowbed" ramblings) individual B is all for it - because that speaks a language the majority understands.
Top

Keshav	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 18 Jan 2009 09:36 pm
BRFite Joined: 20 Sep 2007 03:23 am Posts: 595 Location: USA	brihaspati wrote: ...better known as Geeta, provides elements that help people to feel good about taking "action", (and ignoring specifics along lines of Bhisma's "arrowbed" ramblings) individual B is all for it - because that speaks a language the majority understands. I suppose for some people it is like that. For me, it just seems fake to lead an unexamined life like that. People who are unwilling to question and discuss religion in the sense that we are doing right now generally don't do it anywhere else in life. Anyway, I tried to relate the epic back to the thread but I don't think I can do it any longer. Am declaring OT.
Top

brihaspati	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 18 Jan 2009 11:26 pm
BRFite Joined: 18 Nov 2008 09:55 pm Posts: 1593	Keshavji, I always value your comments. Just wanted to say that (a) Mahabharatam is an epic, and could have a certain purpose in being told the way it is told reflecting the author's own leanings about social order etc. If the real Mahabharata war happened, then what its participants actually said or believed in could have been substantially different from the epic. So we don't know whether the epic itself is distorted history or not. So, its characters may not actually represent real social situation. (In fact one can see that the moral principles or social laws laid down do not always agree with the events being described). (b) If there are such compromising, capitulatory passages, there are also passages about taking action, for not doing so is supposed to lead to all sorts of "fall" - the "survey of battlefield" portion of the same translation you refer to has it. (c) Arthasastra, which you also refer to, is less controversial as representing some degree of historical reality - and does not speak of capitulation, it is all about expansion, war and strategic alliances to expand. I would just like to look for the basic principles, in any ideology. As soon as it begins to insist on only one or a literal interpretation, there is a danger signal. The revealed traditions insist on such literal, fixed interpretations. Pre-revealed-tradition Indic philosophies contain streams which do not have such insistence. Because they allow multiple or alternative "desirable" interpretations, and they are of Indic origin and therefore less alien, they can be suitably modified for mass mobilizations towards modernization.
Top

ramana	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 19 Jan 2009 09:20 pm
Forum Moderator Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 7269	Late Iravati Karve has written a very good commentary on the Mahabharata called "Yuganta". Try to get hold of it. It looks critically at each of the characters and writes her views about them. To me it made the Mahabharata epic that much more insightful. One Blogger's comments
Top

durgesh	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 19 Jan 2009 09:47 pm
BRFite Joined: 05 Oct 2008 10:31 am Posts: 374	Manushya balee nahi hoat hai, samay hoat balwaan ! Bheelan gopi chheen liye , wahi Arjun wahi baan !! Here are my favourite lines regarding Mahabharat . My boss , who is a mallu Christian, says Hindus got their aggression back after Mahabharat was telecast on DD.He believes, this serial changed the Hindu psyche completely.It reminded them of their glorious past and gallant bravery of their ancestors . One history teacher once said, had Bhishma not taken the oath to remain a bachelor , India's history would have been different as India lost all its brave sons in the battle of Mahabharat and he opined that the fall of Bharat to foreign invaders was a consequence of Budhhism spreading like wild fire after Kalinga YUdhha when Ashoka accepted Buddhism and started preaching ahimsa.When ahimsa took over the sword , Bharat fell to the invaders ,maybe,it had lost its fighting skills and its spirits.
Top

Abhi_G	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 20 Jan 2009 03:36 am
BRFite Joined: 13 Aug 2008 04:12 pm Posts: 180	The Bhagavad Gita inspired thousands of young freedom fighters in Bengal to sacrifice their lives for the motherland. Members of the Anushilan Samiti were torch bearers of the freedom struggle and they all derived inspiration from the Bhagavad Gita.
Top

Prem	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 20 Jan 2009 05:13 am
BRFite Joined: 01 Jul 1999 06:01 am Posts: 1197 Location: JANAZA E PAKISTAN	Durgesh , Even Swami Vivekanand said Lord Budha was great son of India who mad the mistake of injecting Ahinsa in Indian society. Budha could not forsee the future barbarians inspired by Middle Eastern medieval mentality unleashed on Indians. A gentleman once told me Ashoka under Budhist Ahinsa threw weapons in Ganges at Patna and Guru Gobind Sing was later born in same Patna to remedy this particular mistake .
Top

Abhi_G	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 20 Jan 2009 03:32 pm
BRFite Joined: 13 Aug 2008 04:12 pm Posts: 180	Ashok actually never disbanded his military. He kept his image as a general intact in his empire. It is a different issue that India did not face foreign invasions during his time. His grandfather had already subdued the greeks in present Afghanistan and beyond.
Top

surinder	Post subject: Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies Posted: 20 Jan 2009 03:54 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 457 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	durgesh wrote: My boss , who is a mallu Christian, says Hindus got their aggression back after Mahabharat was telecast on DD.He believes, this serial changed the Hindu psyche completely.It reminded them of their glorious past and gallant bravery of their ancestors . Your Mallu boss is a smart guy. Inshallah, we should telecast on thousands of channels and bring back that intensity even more.